In my own experience, this can work well in a small group with engaged students. I had an excellent optics class where we would try to derive a known result as a group: the professor would explain the experiment, draw a picture, and then ask us to help. If we got him going, he would take a few steps, then ask again. Now, I remember next to nothing of equations for optics, but I have a very good idea of how to go about figuring out the outcomes for various experiments theoretically.
On the other hand, I’ve had professors stop referring to notes partway through a derivation or proof, get dreadfully confused, and simply frustrate themselves and their students. So this may be an all-or-nothing: for a given day or proof or class, either do a group derivation or present the material on a platter.
I will say that I also had a high school English teacher who would use the wrong word or give a ridiculous interpretation in the hopes that a student would correct him and learn to not always trust authority. I liked the theory, but in practice it meant that the attentive students had to do work that was frequently repetitive and irritating, such as correcting word choice or grammar (as these were students who were already thinking) while those who could learn most from such a lesson never noticed it.
I will say that I also had a high school English teacher who would use the wrong word or give a ridiculous interpretation in the hopes that a student would correct him and learn to not always trust authority.
I had a teacher somewhat similar to that my freshman year in high school, except she was a last-minute replacement and was not really an English teacher. Her grammar was atrocious, and I ended up getting detention for correcting her too often (interrupting class or lack of respect or some such was the reason given on the detention). It was probably my first real experience with an authority figure being so utterly and obviously wrong, and I wasn’t sorry at all for the detention. It was well worth it.
When I was 13 or 14, my physical science teacher was talking
to the class about
spaceprobes with
trajectories that take them outside the solar system. He
said that such probes get faster and faster as they go.
Thinking he either had misspoken or was intentionally being
wrong to see who would catch his error, I
corrected him. To
my surprise, he said he had not misspoken and that he was
correct. We argued about it a bit then he told me to write
down a defense of my position.
Later that day, kids came up to me and said, “Why are you
arguing with Mr. S? You know he’s right!”.
I wrote a weak attempt at a defense of the law of inertia
(using a reductio ad absurdum argument if I remember
correctly). When I gave it to him the next day, he praised
it and conceded the argument—but only privately. He
never admitted he was wrong in front of my classmates.
I argued publicly with my German teacher about the derivation of ‘case’ in class. At the beginning of the next lesson, she started with an admission that she’d been wrong and I’d been right. In conceding to a twelve year old on her home ground in front of a class of other children that her job was to control, she taught me an awesome lesson about honesty and humility. I held her in huge respect after that and was her ally ever after. Thank you Ms Eyre.
Yeesh, that’s terrible. It kind of figures that he’d rather mislead a class full of students about the way physics works than own up to his mistake.
It reminds me of an error I had been taught about the way airfoils work that wasn’t corrected until I read a flippin comic strip on the subject almost a decade after I graduated high school.
I was stunned, and spent the rest of the afternoon learning how airfoils really work. What makes this particular example so tragic is it leverages another principle of physics that you won’t realize doesn’t fit if you are taught to accept everything the teacher says as gospel. What’s worse is I’m pretty sure the mistake is still there in the vast majority of textbooks.
By which I assume you mean ‘her dialect was neither mine nor the prestige dialect I was brought up to consider socially desirable’?
But yes, I can see that the experience of meeting some proletarian thicko who thought she knowed summat about readin out of books might have been enlightening.
You might disagree that grammar ought to be important, but as long as it is important and as long as English class is meant to teach it, it’s inexcusable for the teacher not to know it.
If it was an English class and she was speaking English, then anything she was saying counts as demonstration.
Similarly, if the math teacher is writing equations all over the board in front of the class and they contain a lot of mistakes, anyone who notices should point that out, even if it’s not being done for the purposes of teaching the class.
It couldn’t be that, I was raised among the proletariat. Not much prestige dialect signalling there. (There is some, of course, but nothing like the bourgeoisie.)
As far as I can tell, all English people are completely obsessed with class and signalling issues, except possibly the royal family, who I imagine feel fairly secure. I don’t know what it’s like in the rest of the world, though.
Yes, we care about that. Anything written improperly will take longer to read and interpret, and so by a little extra effort now you can save your readers much extra effort later. Failing to take this common courtesy is worthy of a downvote.
are youse objecting to the viciousness of my attack
Making any “attack” is downvote-worthy on its own.
Anything written improperly will take longer to read and interpret
Must add up to hours, added up over a lifetime. But it’s a great way of telling the uneducated to keep their ill-informed opinions to themselves. Which is often a useful thing to be able to say politely.
Bad spelling and grammar are good bayesy evidence that the speaker doesn’t know what they’re talking about. But they’re not a moral issue.
Just imagine what this class was like from the teacher’s point of view, with someone constantly making her feel inferior while she was trying to communicate something. If she was from a poor background and had nevertheless become an English teacher she might well have had something interesting to say.
I think we’re both wasting time on this silly argument I’ve started. I’ll give you the last word and not respond.
I think in my previous post the implication is that I believe the punishment was unwarranted. That is not the case (though I certainly felt that way at the time). I simply felt the reason given for the detention was less important than the experience of realizing that authority figures can be wrong.
It was entirely appropriate for the teacher to give me detention, because I actually was interrupting class when she was trying to teach, and I don’t think I was being particularly helpful to the rest of the students. What she was teaching was correct, as far as I can remember, however there isn’t much a person can do about 40+ years of poor habits when it comes to speaking English.
She was in a bad position, and did a reasonable job under the circumstances. I was just a bratty little smart aleck making her life difficult.
Cheers, bigjeff5. My comment was deliberately inflammatory and I apologize for it. The very idea of “correct English” makes me suspend rational thought.
My own background is complicated, but my mother’s father was a Sheffield Irish steelworker and him (sic) and his wife cared very much about all that sort of thing.
In my own experience, this can work well in a small group with engaged students. I had an excellent optics class where we would try to derive a known result as a group: the professor would explain the experiment, draw a picture, and then ask us to help. If we got him going, he would take a few steps, then ask again. Now, I remember next to nothing of equations for optics, but I have a very good idea of how to go about figuring out the outcomes for various experiments theoretically.
On the other hand, I’ve had professors stop referring to notes partway through a derivation or proof, get dreadfully confused, and simply frustrate themselves and their students. So this may be an all-or-nothing: for a given day or proof or class, either do a group derivation or present the material on a platter.
I will say that I also had a high school English teacher who would use the wrong word or give a ridiculous interpretation in the hopes that a student would correct him and learn to not always trust authority. I liked the theory, but in practice it meant that the attentive students had to do work that was frequently repetitive and irritating, such as correcting word choice or grammar (as these were students who were already thinking) while those who could learn most from such a lesson never noticed it.
I had a teacher somewhat similar to that my freshman year in high school, except she was a last-minute replacement and was not really an English teacher. Her grammar was atrocious, and I ended up getting detention for correcting her too often (interrupting class or lack of respect or some such was the reason given on the detention). It was probably my first real experience with an authority figure being so utterly and obviously wrong, and I wasn’t sorry at all for the detention. It was well worth it.
Here’s my bad teacher story:
When I was 13 or 14, my physical science teacher was talking to the class about space probes with trajectories that take them outside the solar system. He said that such probes get faster and faster as they go. Thinking he either had misspoken or was intentionally being wrong to see who would catch his error, I corrected him. To my surprise, he said he had not misspoken and that he was correct. We argued about it a bit then he told me to write down a defense of my position.
Later that day, kids came up to me and said, “Why are you arguing with Mr. S? You know he’s right!”.
I wrote a weak attempt at a defense of the law of inertia (using a reductio ad absurdum argument if I remember correctly). When I gave it to him the next day, he praised it and conceded the argument—but only privately. He never admitted he was wrong in front of my classmates.
I argued publicly with my German teacher about the derivation of ‘case’ in class. At the beginning of the next lesson, she started with an admission that she’d been wrong and I’d been right. In conceding to a twelve year old on her home ground in front of a class of other children that her job was to control, she taught me an awesome lesson about honesty and humility. I held her in huge respect after that and was her ally ever after. Thank you Ms Eyre.
Yeesh, that’s terrible. It kind of figures that he’d rather mislead a class full of students about the way physics works than own up to his mistake.
It reminds me of an error I had been taught about the way airfoils work that wasn’t corrected until I read a flippin comic strip on the subject almost a decade after I graduated high school.
I was stunned, and spent the rest of the afternoon learning how airfoils really work. What makes this particular example so tragic is it leverages another principle of physics that you won’t realize doesn’t fit if you are taught to accept everything the teacher says as gospel. What’s worse is I’m pretty sure the mistake is still there in the vast majority of textbooks.
By which I assume you mean ‘her dialect was neither mine nor the prestige dialect I was brought up to consider socially desirable’?
But yes, I can see that the experience of meeting some proletarian thicko who thought she knowed summat about readin out of books might have been enlightening.
You might disagree that grammar ought to be important, but as long as it is important and as long as English class is meant to teach it, it’s inexcusable for the teacher not to know it.
Indeed, but how is constantly interrupting her class by demonstrating your social superiority helping?
It’s not. Interrupting class to let the other students know that what the teacher just demonstrated was incorrect, is helping the other students.
Ah, sorry, was she teaching the bad thing, or just talking in her own voice?
If it was an English class and she was speaking English, then anything she was saying counts as demonstration.
Similarly, if the math teacher is writing equations all over the board in front of the class and they contain a lot of mistakes, anyone who notices should point that out, even if it’s not being done for the purposes of teaching the class.
It couldn’t be that, I was raised among the proletariat. Not much prestige dialect signalling there. (There is some, of course, but nothing like the bourgeoisie.)
As far as I can tell, all English people are completely obsessed with class and signalling issues, except possibly the royal family, who I imagine feel fairly secure. I don’t know what it’s like in the rest of the world, though.
Have you read ‘Watching the English’ by Kate Fox, or Paul Fussell’s ‘Guide to the American Class System’, that yvain linked to here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/did/what_is_signaling_really/
karma slaughter! are youse objecting to the viciousness of my attack or do yall really care about grammer and speling?
Yes, we care about that. Anything written improperly will take longer to read and interpret, and so by a little extra effort now you can save your readers much extra effort later. Failing to take this common courtesy is worthy of a downvote.
Making any “attack” is downvote-worthy on its own.
Must add up to hours, added up over a lifetime. But it’s a great way of telling the uneducated to keep their ill-informed opinions to themselves. Which is often a useful thing to be able to say politely.
Bad spelling and grammar are good bayesy evidence that the speaker doesn’t know what they’re talking about. But they’re not a moral issue.
Just imagine what this class was like from the teacher’s point of view, with someone constantly making her feel inferior while she was trying to communicate something. If she was from a poor background and had nevertheless become an English teacher she might well have had something interesting to say.
I think we’re both wasting time on this silly argument I’ve started. I’ll give you the last word and not respond.
I think in my previous post the implication is that I believe the punishment was unwarranted. That is not the case (though I certainly felt that way at the time). I simply felt the reason given for the detention was less important than the experience of realizing that authority figures can be wrong.
It was entirely appropriate for the teacher to give me detention, because I actually was interrupting class when she was trying to teach, and I don’t think I was being particularly helpful to the rest of the students. What she was teaching was correct, as far as I can remember, however there isn’t much a person can do about 40+ years of poor habits when it comes to speaking English.
She was in a bad position, and did a reasonable job under the circumstances. I was just a bratty little smart aleck making her life difficult.
Cheers, bigjeff5. My comment was deliberately inflammatory and I apologize for it. The very idea of “correct English” makes me suspend rational thought.
My own background is complicated, but my mother’s father was a Sheffield Irish steelworker and him (sic) and his wife cared very much about all that sort of thing.
I wrote a bit of a rant about it here:
http://johnlawrenceaspden.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/grammer.html
In case anyone likes rants.
Evidence-based education does suggest teaching to learn is great for learning