Vague again. Realists think mathematical existence, is a real, literal existence for which non-contradiuction is a criterion, whereas antirealists think mathematical existence is a mere metaphor with no more content than non-contradiction.
Vague and empty slogans that might be picked over endlessly, and have been, to no useful purpose. Don’t bother expanding them; it’s a dead end.
Perhaps I should finish with my usual comment that studying philosophy is useful because it allows you to articulate your theories, or, failing that, to notice when there are no clear concepts behind your words.
Much of the source material has failed to learn that lesson, and is useful in this regard primarily as negative examples. Some philosophers even say so. As a discipline for forcing you to discover the fallibility of subjectively clear and distinct ideas, and to arrive at actually clear ideas that demonstrably work, there are better fields of study, for those who are able to learn. Software design, for example.
Before, you seemed to be pitching in with an opinion on anti-realism versus realism, now you seem to be sayign the whole debate is meaningless. Which is your true belief? It isn’t clear.
Much of the source material has failed to learn that lesson, and is useful in this regard primarily as negative examples. Some philosophers even say so. As a discipline for forcing you to discover the fallibility of subjectively clear and distinct ideas, and to arrive at actually clear ideas that demonstrably work, there are better fields of study, for those who are able to learn. Software design, for example.
Says who? As a software engineer, and philosopher (and scientist), I have found philosophy to be the best training for expressing abstract ideas clearly.
Are you a software engineer? Do you believe software engineering has taught you to be clear?
Lisp is worth learning for … the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot.
As a software engineer, and philosopher (and scientist), I have found philosophy to be the best training for expressing abstract ideas clearly.
Well, I have not. Which philosophers would you particularly recommend for this purpose? What in philosophy will assist our most gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thoughts, or is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience I will have when I finally get it?
Are you a software engineer?
Software design and implementation has been a large part of my job and my recreations for all of my adult years. I have never taken a course of study in the subject.
Do you believe software engineering has taught you to be clear?
For example, I was familiar with the fallacy of suggestively named tokens long before reading Eliezer wrote of it on LessWrong, the fallacy of taking the subjective feeling that a task is simple for its actual simplicity, and probably various other things that are now just a part of my mental furniture.
While the lessons are there to be learned, that does not mean that everyone will learn them. I have rolled my eyes many times over what I would call junk XML languages, where the creators have done no more than write down English names for every concept they can think of in some domain of discourse, sprinkle pointy brackets over them, write a DTD, and believe they’ve achieved something. They have not. In the field of procedural humanoid animation, in which I have worked, there have been many attempts to generate animation from a human-written script specifying the movements, but, well, it would take too long to say what I think is wrong with most of them that my own efforts do better. I once heard a distinguished researcher in the field even say “I am not interested in stupid implementation”, as if the real work was in thinking up a structure and the “stupid implementation” could be left to a few graduate students.
And are either Dijkstra or ESR in a position to directly compare the efficacy of software engineering as a means of clearly expressing philosophical ideas to the efficacy of philosophy as a means of clearly expressing philosophical ideas..ie, do they know anything about philosophy?
It’s not news that when two or more STEM type are gathered together they will recite the Mantra Against the Philosophers, in the expectation of reaping agreement and maybe even applause. It’s just not very significant.
It’s also not news that software engineering teaches you to express software engineering concepts clearly, and it’s not very relevant since the topic is expressing philosophical concepts. Pointing out that someone else is unclear doesn’t make you clear. Pointing about that you can be clear about X doesn’t make you clear about Y.
Which philosophers would you particularly recommend for this purpose?
Getting into conversations where there is mutual commitment to clear communication is the best practice, because you get instant feedback Learning the jargon of philosophy—there are a number of dictionary-style works—is also helpful: after all the jargon is tailored to just the kind of topic you were discussing.
What in philosophy will assist our most gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thought
That’s a different topic, but it happens...philosophers have been criticised for entertaining ideas that are too weird, among other things.
or is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience I will have when I finally get it?
That’s a different topic, but it happens...philosophers have been criticised for entertaining ideas that are too weird, among other things.
Weirdness is not the same thing as previously impossible thought. In the strongest form of “impossible thought” you will not even understand the claim being made enough that it registers with you.
It’s not news that when two or more STEM type are gathered together they will recite the Mantra Against the Philosophers, in the expectation of reaping agreement and maybe even applause.
I’m not sure it makes sense to label people like E.S. Raymond who are proclaim hacker values as STEM types. Raymond isn’t following the popular science narrative of logical positivism that you find with the typical STEM person.
Weirdness is not the same thing as previously impossible thought. In the strongest form of “impossible thought” you will not even understand the claim being made enough that it registers with you.
Whatever. It’s about the third or fourth change of topic.
Lisp is worth learning for … the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it. That experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot.
Software design and implementation has been a large part of my job and my recreations for all of my adult years. I have never taken a course of study in the subject.
Do you believe software engineering has taught you to be clear?
It has certainly greatly influenced me in that regard. For example, I was familiar with the fallacy of suggestively named tokens long before reading Eliezer wrote of it on LessWrong, the fallacy of taking the subjective feeling that a task is simple for its actual simplicity, and probably various other things that are now just a part of my mental furniture.
While the lessons are there to be learned, that does not mean that everyone will learn them. I have rolled my eyes many times over what I would call junk XML languages, where the creators have done no more than write down English names for every concept they can think of in some domain of discourse, sprinkle pointy brackets over them, write a DTD, and believe they’ve achieved something. They have not. In the field of procedural humanoid animation, in which I have worked, there have been many attempts to generate animation from a human-written script specifying the movements, but, well, it would take too long to say what I think is wrong with most of them that my own efforts get right. I once heard a distinguished researcher in the field even say “I am not interested in stupid implementation”, as if she could just think up a structure and leave it to a few graduate students to implement.
Vague and empty slogans that might be picked over endlessly, and have been, to no useful purpose. Don’t bother expanding them; it’s a dead end.
Much of the source material has failed to learn that lesson, and is useful in this regard primarily as negative examples. Some philosophers even say so. As a discipline for forcing you to discover the fallibility of subjectively clear and distinct ideas, and to arrive at actually clear ideas that demonstrably work, there are better fields of study, for those who are able to learn. Software design, for example.
Before, you seemed to be pitching in with an opinion on anti-realism versus realism, now you seem to be sayign the whole debate is meaningless. Which is your true belief? It isn’t clear.
Says who? As a software engineer, and philosopher (and scientist), I have found philosophy to be the best training for expressing abstract ideas clearly.
Are you a software engineer? Do you believe software engineering has taught you to be clear?
These two, for example, from opposite ends of the academic/professional spectrum:
E.W. Dijkstra, “The Humble Programmer”
E.S. Raymond, “How To Become A Hacker”
Well, I have not. Which philosophers would you particularly recommend for this purpose? What in philosophy will assist our most gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thoughts, or is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience I will have when I finally get it?
Software design and implementation has been a large part of my job and my recreations for all of my adult years. I have never taken a course of study in the subject.
For example, I was familiar with the fallacy of suggestively named tokens long before reading Eliezer wrote of it on LessWrong, the fallacy of taking the subjective feeling that a task is simple for its actual simplicity, and probably various other things that are now just a part of my mental furniture.
While the lessons are there to be learned, that does not mean that everyone will learn them. I have rolled my eyes many times over what I would call junk XML languages, where the creators have done no more than write down English names for every concept they can think of in some domain of discourse, sprinkle pointy brackets over them, write a DTD, and believe they’ve achieved something. They have not. In the field of procedural humanoid animation, in which I have worked, there have been many attempts to generate animation from a human-written script specifying the movements, but, well, it would take too long to say what I think is wrong with most of them that my own efforts do better. I once heard a distinguished researcher in the field even say “I am not interested in stupid implementation”, as if the real work was in thinking up a structure and the “stupid implementation” could be left to a few graduate students.
And are either Dijkstra or ESR in a position to directly compare the efficacy of software engineering as a means of clearly expressing philosophical ideas to the efficacy of philosophy as a means of clearly expressing philosophical ideas..ie, do they know anything about philosophy?
It’s not news that when two or more STEM type are gathered together they will recite the Mantra Against the Philosophers, in the expectation of reaping agreement and maybe even applause. It’s just not very significant.
It’s also not news that software engineering teaches you to express software engineering concepts clearly, and it’s not very relevant since the topic is expressing philosophical concepts. Pointing out that someone else is unclear doesn’t make you clear. Pointing about that you can be clear about X doesn’t make you clear about Y.
Getting into conversations where there is mutual commitment to clear communication is the best practice, because you get instant feedback Learning the jargon of philosophy—there are a number of dictionary-style works—is also helpful: after all the jargon is tailored to just the kind of topic you were discussing.
That’s a different topic, but it happens...philosophers have been criticised for entertaining ideas that are too weird, among other things.
That’s a different topic again.
Weirdness is not the same thing as previously impossible thought. In the strongest form of “impossible thought” you will not even understand the claim being made enough that it registers with you.
I’m not sure it makes sense to label people like E.S. Raymond who are proclaim hacker values as STEM types. Raymond isn’t following the popular science narrative of logical positivism that you find with the typical STEM person.
Whatever. It’s about the third or fourth change of topic.
Well, I have not. Which philosophers would you particularly recommend?
These two, for example, from opposite ends of the academic/professional spectrum:
E.W. Dijkstra, “The Humble Programmer”
E.S. Raymond, “How To Become A Hacker”
Software design and implementation has been a large part of my job and my recreations for all of my adult years. I have never taken a course of study in the subject.
It has certainly greatly influenced me in that regard. For example, I was familiar with the fallacy of suggestively named tokens long before reading Eliezer wrote of it on LessWrong, the fallacy of taking the subjective feeling that a task is simple for its actual simplicity, and probably various other things that are now just a part of my mental furniture.
While the lessons are there to be learned, that does not mean that everyone will learn them. I have rolled my eyes many times over what I would call junk XML languages, where the creators have done no more than write down English names for every concept they can think of in some domain of discourse, sprinkle pointy brackets over them, write a DTD, and believe they’ve achieved something. They have not. In the field of procedural humanoid animation, in which I have worked, there have been many attempts to generate animation from a human-written script specifying the movements, but, well, it would take too long to say what I think is wrong with most of them that my own efforts get right. I once heard a distinguished researcher in the field even say “I am not interested in stupid implementation”, as if she could just think up a structure and leave it to a few graduate students to implement.