Here’s some dating advice: Don’t use the sentence “you shouldn’t worry about disqualifying yourself or thinking that I’m not accessible to you” anytime anywhere, let alone on your dating profile.
As hard as you have tried to misrepresent the profile through cherrypicking it still doesn’t sound so bad. Eliezer’s profile is actually a close-to-optimal combination of signalling and screening for someone of Eliezer’s strengths and weaknesses. His advice is good, yours is bad—or at least naive and poorly generalised from advice that would be useful for PUA amateurs with a very specific persona and target audience in mind.
who welcomes the casual advances of women who “want to sleep with me once so you can tell your grandchildren”
An excellent conclusion. I almost quoted that too (but chose to emphasize the advice part instead.)
I’m hoping the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek...? (If so, it’s merely the product of poor judgment, rather than terrifying.)
Terrifying? I don’t believe you. I believe this was just a word that sprung to mind when you searched for “word with negative connotations that I can use to attempt to discredit Eliezer”. Pjeby’s commentary of your reply seems spot on.
Terrifying? I don’t believe you. I believe this was just a word that sprung to mind when you searched for “word with negative connotations that I can use to attempt to discredit Eliezer”. Pjeby’s commentary of your reply seems spot on.
I suspect that a lot the disagreement in this thread actually stems from what sets off peoples’ “squick” reflexes and how strong the reaction is in different individuals. It seems like you and pjeby don’t get a strong “squick” reaction from what Eliezer wrote on his profile, whereas scientism does. Compare scientism’s and pjeby’s reactions—scientism calls the profile “a new level of squeamishness,” where pjeby says that this description is “lacking in any explanation for the connotation applied.” To people like scientism, it feels obvious that this kind of squickiness is just bad and ugly-looking, but to yourself and pjeby, it doesn’t seem so apparent.
Stepping down from the meta-level and returning to the original point: I don’t think “terrifying” is necessarily hyperbole. Some people do actually react so strongly to squick that it makes them physically uncomfortable, and uncomfortableness (to whatever degree) is probably what motivated the arguments scientism made, especially the ones that you consider harsh or misrepresentational. (Note that this isn’t a defense of those arguments, just speculation about their origin and why you don’t agree with them.)
To people like scientism, it feels obvious that this kind of squickiness is just bad and ugly-looking, but to yourself and pjeby, it doesn’t seem so apparent.
To be clear: I haven’t actually read the profile, only the excerpts posted here. But I’m quite confused as to why Eliezer openly stating an interest in sadism or polyamory would be a problem in any event.
Rationally speaking, the best way to find a partner with matching preferences is to be open and upfront about what it is your preferences are, just in case your potential partner(s) aren’t being upfront enough for you to find them.
What’s more, societal double standards being what they are, it’s generally less costly for a male to state his preferences up front than for a female… not to mention that it’s time-saving for all the females who don’t share his preferences. Frankly, being as honest and upfront as possible is an altruistic and highly ethical stance to take, because it benefits all of the women who view a person’s profile with an eye to dating its author.
And that’s is why I’m so utterly baffled by the mudslinging that seems to imply it’s, um, unethical? or something.
Edited to add: Just read the actual profile, and I am now updated even more in the direction that I have no clue WTF people are thinking. The sexual bits seem pure and innocent as the driven snow (at least to my own corrupt mind), and even the excessive citation of other people’s finding him impressive came off more as insecurity than arrogance. WTF are people complaining about, besides, “some people won’t like it”? “Some people won’t like it” is a fully general counterargument against doing or saying anything, anywhere, anytime, ever.
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree by engaging the specific arguments scientism is making rather than looking at what motivated these arguments in the first place. See this comment by scientism:
It’s not so much the content as the presentation. The tone is incredibly self-absorbed and condescending. I thought the whole thing was a joke until I encountered the above quoted paragraph with its apparent sincerity. Presumably some of the content is intended to be tongue-in-check and some of it posturing, but it’s difficult to separate. There’s a compounding weirdness to the whole thing.
I don’t think this is actually about Eliezer’s preferences being unethical or anything like that, and it’s certainly not about broader things like the optimal way of finding a partner with matching preferences. This is about a subset of the population reading Eliezer’s profile and thinking oh god this is weird ew ew get it away from me ick ick ick and then writing these kinds of arguments as a reaction. This might sound like I’m being uncharitable to scientism, accusing him/her of giving nontrue rejections, but I think it’s accurate because a) the comment I quoted about indicates that this is largely about squick rather than ethics, and b) I also experienced a very strong squick reaction upon reading Eliezer’s profile, so I’m somewhat sympathetic to freaking out about it.
I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t find offence in any of the particular lifestyle choices expressed in the profile (i.e., sadomasochism and polyamory), but I think it’s more than an issue of mere presentation or the squick factor. My point is that the profile offers some insight into where following LW/SIAI/CFAR recommendations might take you. When somebody sets themselves up as an ethics and rationality expert their own lifestyle and character are going to be subject to especial scrutiny and rightly so. That isn’t to say that people should be alarmed at sadomasochism or polyamory; what I tried to convey was that everything together—the quirks, the presentation, the personality—painted a picture of something altogether bizarre. That combined with the fact that this person is offering advice on how to live your life was the source of potential terror.
Based on your previous comment, I had guessed that you were squicked out by the presentation rather than Eliezer’s actual lifestyle choices; thank you for clarifying. As I indicated above, I had a similar emotional reaction to the presentation.
I’m curious as to what underlying psychological factors caused us to react this way, and what subset of the population would also feel this kind of squick.
I guess what I want to emphasise is that I don’t think the reaction is illicit or even particularly subjective. One of the ways a system of ethics can fail is that it’s impoverished. It doesn’t capture everything we want to say about the subject. When you encounter a person or group who are living their life according to a particular ethical system and you have the sense of things spiralling away from normalcy, that’s a legitimate cause for concern. It’s a sense that something might be missing here. That’s why I said it could almost serve as a reductio. It’s similar to performing a long calculation and being left with the sense that the answer is an order of magnitude out.
Imagine replacing the polyamory with homosexuality, and imagine it is a few decades ago when homosexuality was as risque as polyamory is currently. Do you have the same reaction? If not, what is different? If so, do you condone that reaction?
There’s a historical parallel there. In the earlier 20th century the followers of GE Moore’s system of ethics were alleged to have had non-standard relationships and practiced “evangelical” homosexuality. No doubt they were right to challenge the social mores of their day but I also think it would be fair to say that their lifestyles in total signalled an impoverished ethical system (in this case one dedicated to aesthetic pleasure). Obviously you can have good and bad reasons for doing anything. I’ve seen posts on LW about “polyhacking” (ridding oneself of sexual jealousy) and intentionally opening oneself up to same-sex relationships. I take no issue with any of this except that people might be doing them for bad reasons and that if somebody is engaged in a lot of this kind of thing it can be reason to ask whether their goals got confused somewhere along the way.
if somebody is engaged in a lot of this kind of thing it can be reason to ask whether their goals got confused somewhere along the way.
Agreed.
I would also say the same thing about someone who spends a lot of time trying to conform to mainstream sexual or relationship norms.
Of course, figuring out what my society wants from me (sexually, romantically, or in any other area) and arranging my life so I provide it isn’t necessarily problematic, any more than figuring out what I enjoy (ibid) and arranging my life to provide me with more of it is. But if I’m doing either to the significant exclusion of pursuing other things I value, I’ve gotten off track.
That said, I’ve noticed lots of people tend to notice (or at least point out) that truth differentially when the derailing force is a non-mainstream activity.
You seem to be saying that the fact that “a picture of something altogether bizarre” was painted has something particular to do with the LW community — that there is something that the LW community could have covered up, or done differently, that would have prevented that picture from being painted.
But the writer in question is in the business of gossip-mongering: providing entertainment in the form of bizarre pictures of social groups. This is not a truth-tracking endeavor. An effective gossip-monger can find something kinky and kooky about any group deemed sufficiently important to write about. Moreover, hiding your bi-poly-switch-trans-cuddle-nudist tendencies is not effective against gossip-mongers: if they can’t call you an oversexed pervert, they will call you a sexually-repressed virgin who can’t get laid.
And that’s is why I’m so utterly baffled by the mudslinging that seems to imply it’s, um, unethical? or something.
I assumed the reasoning went “A preference for sexually masochistic mates is inherently evil. Eliezer expressed such a preference therefore he is confessing to be unethical.”
I really don’t think this is what scientism is actually arguing—what makes you think that? Also, see my reply to pjeby—I see this as being about tone rather than moral arguments.
I really don’t think this is what scientism is actually arguing—what makes you think that?
Because that is the actual implied meaning of the argument. (Substitute “accepted by all relevant parties to be” for “inherently” if you prefer.) Of course he didn’t make it explicit and instead kept it in the realm of connotation. That’s what you are supposed to do when moralizing—especially when your moralizing makes no sense.
If you reject the above as the intended argument then all you achieve is changing the interpretation from “coherent argument based on ridiculous premises” to “no argument whatsoever”. Hardly an improvement.
Also, see my reply to pjeby—I see this as being about tone rather than moral arguments.
Pjeby similarly described scientism’s comment as being devoid of anything but negative tone.
If you reject the above as the intended argument then all you achieve is changing the interpretation from “coherent argument based on ridiculous premises” to “no argument whatsoever”. Hardly an improvement.
I had intended to shift the discussion to the emotional reaction that created the argument. If a subset of the population responds to certain things with such a strong emotional reaction, then this may be worth talking about, even if the arguments scientism used when expressing this emotion aren’t.
As hard as you have tried to misrepresent the profile through cherrypicking it still doesn’t sound so bad. Eliezer’s profile is actually a close-to-optimal combination of signalling and screening for someone of Eliezer’s strengths and weaknesses. His advice is good, yours is bad—or at least naive and poorly generalised from advice that would be useful for PUA amateurs with a very specific persona and target audience in mind.
An excellent conclusion. I almost quoted that too (but chose to emphasize the advice part instead.)
Terrifying? I don’t believe you. I believe this was just a word that sprung to mind when you searched for “word with negative connotations that I can use to attempt to discredit Eliezer”. Pjeby’s commentary of your reply seems spot on.
I suspect that a lot the disagreement in this thread actually stems from what sets off peoples’ “squick” reflexes and how strong the reaction is in different individuals. It seems like you and pjeby don’t get a strong “squick” reaction from what Eliezer wrote on his profile, whereas scientism does. Compare scientism’s and pjeby’s reactions—scientism calls the profile “a new level of squeamishness,” where pjeby says that this description is “lacking in any explanation for the connotation applied.” To people like scientism, it feels obvious that this kind of squickiness is just bad and ugly-looking, but to yourself and pjeby, it doesn’t seem so apparent.
Stepping down from the meta-level and returning to the original point: I don’t think “terrifying” is necessarily hyperbole. Some people do actually react so strongly to squick that it makes them physically uncomfortable, and uncomfortableness (to whatever degree) is probably what motivated the arguments scientism made, especially the ones that you consider harsh or misrepresentational. (Note that this isn’t a defense of those arguments, just speculation about their origin and why you don’t agree with them.)
To be clear: I haven’t actually read the profile, only the excerpts posted here. But I’m quite confused as to why Eliezer openly stating an interest in sadism or polyamory would be a problem in any event.
Rationally speaking, the best way to find a partner with matching preferences is to be open and upfront about what it is your preferences are, just in case your potential partner(s) aren’t being upfront enough for you to find them.
What’s more, societal double standards being what they are, it’s generally less costly for a male to state his preferences up front than for a female… not to mention that it’s time-saving for all the females who don’t share his preferences. Frankly, being as honest and upfront as possible is an altruistic and highly ethical stance to take, because it benefits all of the women who view a person’s profile with an eye to dating its author.
And that’s is why I’m so utterly baffled by the mudslinging that seems to imply it’s, um, unethical? or something.
Edited to add: Just read the actual profile, and I am now updated even more in the direction that I have no clue WTF people are thinking. The sexual bits seem pure and innocent as the driven snow (at least to my own corrupt mind), and even the excessive citation of other people’s finding him impressive came off more as insecurity than arrogance. WTF are people complaining about, besides, “some people won’t like it”? “Some people won’t like it” is a fully general counterargument against doing or saying anything, anywhere, anytime, ever.
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree by engaging the specific arguments scientism is making rather than looking at what motivated these arguments in the first place. See this comment by scientism:
I don’t think this is actually about Eliezer’s preferences being unethical or anything like that, and it’s certainly not about broader things like the optimal way of finding a partner with matching preferences. This is about a subset of the population reading Eliezer’s profile and thinking oh god this is weird ew ew get it away from me ick ick ick and then writing these kinds of arguments as a reaction. This might sound like I’m being uncharitable to scientism, accusing him/her of giving nontrue rejections, but I think it’s accurate because a) the comment I quoted about indicates that this is largely about squick rather than ethics, and b) I also experienced a very strong squick reaction upon reading Eliezer’s profile, so I’m somewhat sympathetic to freaking out about it.
I think I’ve made it clear that I don’t find offence in any of the particular lifestyle choices expressed in the profile (i.e., sadomasochism and polyamory), but I think it’s more than an issue of mere presentation or the squick factor. My point is that the profile offers some insight into where following LW/SIAI/CFAR recommendations might take you. When somebody sets themselves up as an ethics and rationality expert their own lifestyle and character are going to be subject to especial scrutiny and rightly so. That isn’t to say that people should be alarmed at sadomasochism or polyamory; what I tried to convey was that everything together—the quirks, the presentation, the personality—painted a picture of something altogether bizarre. That combined with the fact that this person is offering advice on how to live your life was the source of potential terror.
Based on your previous comment, I had guessed that you were squicked out by the presentation rather than Eliezer’s actual lifestyle choices; thank you for clarifying. As I indicated above, I had a similar emotional reaction to the presentation.
I’m curious as to what underlying psychological factors caused us to react this way, and what subset of the population would also feel this kind of squick.
I guess what I want to emphasise is that I don’t think the reaction is illicit or even particularly subjective. One of the ways a system of ethics can fail is that it’s impoverished. It doesn’t capture everything we want to say about the subject. When you encounter a person or group who are living their life according to a particular ethical system and you have the sense of things spiralling away from normalcy, that’s a legitimate cause for concern. It’s a sense that something might be missing here. That’s why I said it could almost serve as a reductio. It’s similar to performing a long calculation and being left with the sense that the answer is an order of magnitude out.
To me, what society considers “normal” is terribly unethical, so “spiraling away from normalcy” isn’t a cause for concern, but perks my curiosity.
“Maybe he’s on to something...”
Imagine replacing the polyamory with homosexuality, and imagine it is a few decades ago when homosexuality was as risque as polyamory is currently. Do you have the same reaction? If not, what is different? If so, do you condone that reaction?
There’s a historical parallel there. In the earlier 20th century the followers of GE Moore’s system of ethics were alleged to have had non-standard relationships and practiced “evangelical” homosexuality. No doubt they were right to challenge the social mores of their day but I also think it would be fair to say that their lifestyles in total signalled an impoverished ethical system (in this case one dedicated to aesthetic pleasure). Obviously you can have good and bad reasons for doing anything. I’ve seen posts on LW about “polyhacking” (ridding oneself of sexual jealousy) and intentionally opening oneself up to same-sex relationships. I take no issue with any of this except that people might be doing them for bad reasons and that if somebody is engaged in a lot of this kind of thing it can be reason to ask whether their goals got confused somewhere along the way.
Agreed.
I would also say the same thing about someone who spends a lot of time trying to conform to mainstream sexual or relationship norms.
Of course, figuring out what my society wants from me (sexually, romantically, or in any other area) and arranging my life so I provide it isn’t necessarily problematic, any more than figuring out what I enjoy (ibid) and arranging my life to provide me with more of it is. But if I’m doing either to the significant exclusion of pursuing other things I value, I’ve gotten off track.
That said, I’ve noticed lots of people tend to notice (or at least point out) that truth differentially when the derailing force is a non-mainstream activity.
You seem to be saying that the fact that “a picture of something altogether bizarre” was painted has something particular to do with the LW community — that there is something that the LW community could have covered up, or done differently, that would have prevented that picture from being painted.
But the writer in question is in the business of gossip-mongering: providing entertainment in the form of bizarre pictures of social groups. This is not a truth-tracking endeavor. An effective gossip-monger can find something kinky and kooky about any group deemed sufficiently important to write about. Moreover, hiding your bi-poly-switch-trans-cuddle-nudist tendencies is not effective against gossip-mongers: if they can’t call you an oversexed pervert, they will call you a sexually-repressed virgin who can’t get laid.
I assumed the reasoning went “A preference for sexually masochistic mates is inherently evil. Eliezer expressed such a preference therefore he is confessing to be unethical.”
I really don’t think this is what scientism is actually arguing—what makes you think that? Also, see my reply to pjeby—I see this as being about tone rather than moral arguments.
Because that is the actual implied meaning of the argument. (Substitute “accepted by all relevant parties to be” for “inherently” if you prefer.) Of course he didn’t make it explicit and instead kept it in the realm of connotation. That’s what you are supposed to do when moralizing—especially when your moralizing makes no sense.
If you reject the above as the intended argument then all you achieve is changing the interpretation from “coherent argument based on ridiculous premises” to “no argument whatsoever”. Hardly an improvement.
Pjeby similarly described scientism’s comment as being devoid of anything but negative tone.
I had intended to shift the discussion to the emotional reaction that created the argument. If a subset of the population responds to certain things with such a strong emotional reaction, then this may be worth talking about, even if the arguments scientism used when expressing this emotion aren’t.
I agree with everything else you said.
I agree with what you say here too.
Yes, it was actually shockingly good presentation, although I guess I shouldn’t be surprised after reading HPMOR.