That wouldn’t work. I do these things by default, because I can’t do the things I want. I don’t even have a problem with standard akrasia anymore, because I immediately act on any impulse I have to do something, given how rare they are. Also, I can expend willpower do stop doing something, whereas “I need to do this but I can’t” seems impervious to it, at least in the amounts I have.
There are plenty of things to be done here, but they’re too hard to bootstrap. The easy ones helped somewhat.
That helped me most. In the grey area between things I can do and things I can’t (currently, cleaning, homework, most phone calls), pressure helps. But no amount of ass-kicking has made me do the things I’ve been trying to do for a while.
The worst are semi-routine activities; the kind of things you need to do sometimes but not frequently enough to mesh with the daily routine. Going to the bank, making most appointments, looking for an apartment, buying clothes (don’t ask me why food is okay but clothes aren’t). That list is expanding.
Other factors that hurt are:
need to do in one setting, no way of doing a small part at a time
need to go out
social situations
new situations
being watched while I do it (I can’t cook because I share the kitchen with other students, but I could if I didn’t)
having to do it quickly once I start
Most of these cause me fear, which makes it harder to do things, rather than make it harder directly.
This matches my experience very closely. One observation I’d like to add is that one of my strongest triggers for procrastination spirals is having a task repeatedly brought to my attention in a context where it’s impossible to follow through on it—ie, reminders to do things from well-intentioned friends, delivered at inappropriate times. For example, if someone reminds me to get some car maintenance done, the fact that I obviously can’t go do it right then means it gets mentally tagged as a wrong course of action, and then later when I really ought to do it the tag is still there.
I ended up just explaining the issue to the person who was generating most of the reminders. It wasn’t an easy conversation to have (it can sound like being ungrateful and passing blame) but it was definitely necessary. Sending a link to this thread and then bringing it up later seems like it’d mitigate that problem, so that’s probably the way to go.
Note that it’s very important to draw a distinction between things you haven’t done because you’ve forgotten, for which reminders can actually be helpful, and things you aren’t doing because of lack of motivation, for which reminders are harmful.
If you’re reading this because a chronic procrastinator sent you a link, then please take this one piece of advice: The very worst thing you can do is remind them every time you speak. If you do that, you will not only reduce the chance that they’ll actually do it, you’ll also poison your relationship with them by getting yourself mentally classified as a nag.
I can’t do that, but thanks anyway. A good deal of the reminders happen in a (semi-)professional context where the top priority is pretending to be normal (yes, my priorities are screwed up). Most others come from a person who doesn’t react to “this thing you do is causing me physical pain”, so forget it.
I can’t do that, but thanks anyway. A good deal of the reminders happen in a (semi-)professional context
In that case, you’ll have to mindhack yourself to change the way you react to reminders like this. This isn’t necessarily easy, but if you pull it off it’s a one-time act with results that stick with you.
That’s a good change to make, and there’s also a complementary third option: A specific variant of ‘making a mental note’ that seems to work very well, at least for me.
1) Determine a point in your regular or planned schedule where you could divert from your regular schedule to do the thing that you need to do. This doesn’t have to be the optimal point of departure, just a workable one; you should naturally learn how to spot better points of departure as time goes on, but it’s more important to have a point of departure than it is to have a perfect one. It is, however, important that the point of departure is a task during which you will be thinking, rather than being on autopilot. I like to use doorway passages as my points of departure (for example, ‘when I get home from running the errands I’m going to do tomorrow, and go to open my front door’) because they tend to be natural transition times, but there are many other options. (Other favorites are ‘next time I see a certain person’ and ‘when I finish (or start) a certain task’.)
2) Envision what you would perceive as you entered that situation, using whatever visualization method most closely matches your normal way of paying attention to the world. I tend to use my senses of sight and touch most, so I might visualize what I’d see as I walked up to my front door, or the feel of holding my keys as I got ready to open it.
3) Envision yourself suddenly and strongly remembering your task in the situation you envisioned in step two. It may also work, if you aren’t able to envision your thoughts like that, to visualize yourself taking the first few task-specific steps—for example, if the task is to write an email, you’d want to visualize not just turning on your computer or starting up your email program, but entering the recipient’s name into the from: field and writing the greeting.
If this works for you like it works for me, it should cause the appropriate thought (or task, if you used that variant of step 3) to be triggered at a useful time, and with practice it only takes a few moments to set up, so you can ask the person giving you the reminder to give you a moment to make a mental note of it, and then move on with the conversation. Also, if you do have a trigger like this set up for a given task, it gives you a very good response to repeated reminders: “Yes, I know; I’m planning to do that at whatever particular point in time.”
A further advantage is that since this method causes the reminder to be triggered by something that will happen automatically anyway, you don’t have to keep thinking about it; in fact, I’ve found that my memory will be triggered more reliably when I haven’t worried about the task in the meantime. And if you can let the task go until the trigger reminds you of it, that will reduce the cognitive load that you’re carrying, as well.
There is a noteworthy concern with this method, though: It can make you reliant on your schedule staying consistent. If I have plans to run errands, for example, and add a trigger to go off when I get home from that, then I can’t change my plans without interfering with the trigger—and if the trigger is set for when I come home from the errands, I may not even remember that I had it set at all when I decide to change my errand plans. There are a few ways to work around that; I go with a combination of having a separate mental to-do list as a backup (which I strictly only refer to during mental downtime, and never try to work from directly: another cognitive-resource saving mechanism), and sometimes using a daily review of what I was intending to get done that day, with brief visualizations of all of the transition points where I’m likely to have had a trigger that wasn’t triggered. (“Ok, I was going to get on my bike and go to the craft store and the grocery store, and then bike home, and then… bugger.”)
Overall, I’ve found this to work very well, though.
The technique should work even if you find yourself thinking about the task at other times; it just might not work as well, because of the effect that jimrandmoh mentioned about reminders reducing your inclination to do something. A variation of the workaround I mentioned for dealing with others works to mitigate the effect of self-reminders, though—don’t just tell yourself ‘not right now’, tell yourself ‘not right now, but at [time/event]’.
I can’t say much about how to disable involuntary self-reminders altogether, unfortunately. I don’t experience them, and if I ever did, it was long enough ago that I’ve forgotten both that I did and how I stopped. I have, however, read in several different places that using a reliable reminder system (whether one like I’m suggesting, or something more formal like a written or typed list, or whatever) tends to make them eventually stop happening without any particular effort, as the relevant brain-bits learn that the reliable system is in fact reliable, which seems quite plausible to me.
That sounds like a cognitive-load issue at least as much as it sounds like inertia, to me. (Except the being-watched part, that is. I have that quirk too, and I still haven’t figured out what that’s about.) There are things that can be done about that, but most of them are minor tweaks that would need to be personalized for you. I suspect I might have some useful things to say about the fear, too. I’ll PM you my contact info.
What do you mean by “cognitive load”? I read the Wikipedia article on cognitive load theory, but I don’t see the connection.
For me, the being-watched part is about embarrassment. I often need to stop and examine a situation and explicitly model it, when most people would just go ahead naturally. Awkward looks cause anxiety.
The concept I’m talking about is broader than the concept that Wikipedia talks about; it’s the general idea that brains only have so many resources to go around, and that some brains have less resources than others or find certain tasks more costly than others, and that it takes a while for those resources to regenerate. Something like this idea has come up a few times here, mostly regarding willpower specifically (and we’ve found studies supporting it in that case), but my experience is that it’s much more generally applicable then that.
And, if your brain regenerates that resource particularly slowly, and if you haven’t been thinking in terms of conserving that limited resource (or set of resources, depending on how exactly you’re modeling it), it’s fairly easy to set yourself up with a lifestyle that uses the resource faster than it can regenerate, which has pretty much the effect you described. (I’ve experienced it, too, and it’s not an uncommon situation to hear about in the autistic community.)
Yes! It does feel like running out of a scarce resource most people have in heaps. I don’t know exactly how that resource is generated and how to tell how much I have left before I run out, though.
There is evidence linking people’s limited resources for thought and willpower to their blood glucose, which is another good reason to see a doctor to find out if there’s something physiological underlying some of your problems.
That’s a good question. There is a correlation between running out of it and thinking about it, but it’s pretty obvious that most of the causation happens the other way around. Talking about it here doesn’t seem to hurt, so probably not.
I have, for a few months, about a year and a half ago. It was slightly effective. I stopped when I moved and couldn’t get myself to call again.
Nothing that looks like it should matter.
Not much. I had a routine blood test some years ago. Everything was normal, though they probably only measured a few things.
No prescription drugs.
When I’m on campus I eat mostly vegetables, fresh or canned, and some canned fish or meat, and generic cafeteria food (balanced diet plus a heap of French fries); nothing that requires a lot of effort. At my parents’, I eat, um, traditional wholesome food. I eat a lot between meals for comfort, mostly apples. I think my diet is fine in quality but terrible in quantity; I eat way too much and skip meals at random.
Given your symptoms, the best advice I can give you is to see a medical doctor of some kind, probably a psychiatrist, and describe your problems. It has to be someone who can order medical tests and write prescriptions. You might very well have a thyroid problem—they cause all kinds of problems with energy and such—and you need someone who can diagnose them. I don’t know how to get you to a doctor’s office, but I guess you could ask someone else to take you?
How much fresh citrus fruit is there in your diet?
One of the things that helped me with near depression symptoms when i was in another country was consumption of fresh fruit. Apples and pears helped me, but you already are having apples. hmm..
Try some fresh orange/lemon/sweet lime/grapefruit juices. Might help.
Okay. Nothing I have will help you. My problems are generally OCD based procrastination loops or modifying bad habits and rituals. Solutions to these assume impulses to do things.
I have nothing that would provide you with impulses to do.
All of my interpretations of “I can’t do X” assume what I mean when I tell myself I can’t do X.
Sorry. If I were actually there I could probably come up with something but I highly doubt I would be able to “see” you well enough through text to be able to find a relevant answer.
I’ve tried all that (they’re on LW already).
That wouldn’t work. I do these things by default, because I can’t do the things I want. I don’t even have a problem with standard akrasia anymore, because I immediately act on any impulse I have to do something, given how rare they are. Also, I can expend willpower do stop doing something, whereas “I need to do this but I can’t” seems impervious to it, at least in the amounts I have.
There are plenty of things to be done here, but they’re too hard to bootstrap. The easy ones helped somewhat.
That helped me most. In the grey area between things I can do and things I can’t (currently, cleaning, homework, most phone calls), pressure helps. But no amount of ass-kicking has made me do the things I’ve been trying to do for a while.
What classes of things are on the ‘can’t do’ list?
The worst are semi-routine activities; the kind of things you need to do sometimes but not frequently enough to mesh with the daily routine. Going to the bank, making most appointments, looking for an apartment, buying clothes (don’t ask me why food is okay but clothes aren’t). That list is expanding.
Other factors that hurt are:
need to do in one setting, no way of doing a small part at a time
need to go out
social situations
new situations
being watched while I do it (I can’t cook because I share the kitchen with other students, but I could if I didn’t)
having to do it quickly once I start
Most of these cause me fear, which makes it harder to do things, rather than make it harder directly.
This matches my experience very closely. One observation I’d like to add is that one of my strongest triggers for procrastination spirals is having a task repeatedly brought to my attention in a context where it’s impossible to follow through on it—ie, reminders to do things from well-intentioned friends, delivered at inappropriate times. For example, if someone reminds me to get some car maintenance done, the fact that I obviously can’t go do it right then means it gets mentally tagged as a wrong course of action, and then later when I really ought to do it the tag is still there.
Definitely. So that’s why I can’t do the stuff I should have done a while ago! Thanks for the insight. What works for you?
I ended up just explaining the issue to the person who was generating most of the reminders. It wasn’t an easy conversation to have (it can sound like being ungrateful and passing blame) but it was definitely necessary. Sending a link to this thread and then bringing it up later seems like it’d mitigate that problem, so that’s probably the way to go.
Note that it’s very important to draw a distinction between things you haven’t done because you’ve forgotten, for which reminders can actually be helpful, and things you aren’t doing because of lack of motivation, for which reminders are harmful.
If you’re reading this because a chronic procrastinator sent you a link, then please take this one piece of advice: The very worst thing you can do is remind them every time you speak. If you do that, you will not only reduce the chance that they’ll actually do it, you’ll also poison your relationship with them by getting yourself mentally classified as a nag.
I can’t do that, but thanks anyway. A good deal of the reminders happen in a (semi-)professional context where the top priority is pretending to be normal (yes, my priorities are screwed up). Most others come from a person who doesn’t react to “this thing you do is causing me physical pain”, so forget it.
Why do you interact with this person?
They’re family. I planned to be as independent from the family ASAP, but couldn’t due to my worsening problems.
In that case, you’ll have to mindhack yourself to change the way you react to reminders like this. This isn’t necessarily easy, but if you pull it off it’s a one-time act with results that stick with you.
That’s a good change to make, and there’s also a complementary third option: A specific variant of ‘making a mental note’ that seems to work very well, at least for me.
1) Determine a point in your regular or planned schedule where you could divert from your regular schedule to do the thing that you need to do. This doesn’t have to be the optimal point of departure, just a workable one; you should naturally learn how to spot better points of departure as time goes on, but it’s more important to have a point of departure than it is to have a perfect one. It is, however, important that the point of departure is a task during which you will be thinking, rather than being on autopilot. I like to use doorway passages as my points of departure (for example, ‘when I get home from running the errands I’m going to do tomorrow, and go to open my front door’) because they tend to be natural transition times, but there are many other options. (Other favorites are ‘next time I see a certain person’ and ‘when I finish (or start) a certain task’.)
2) Envision what you would perceive as you entered that situation, using whatever visualization method most closely matches your normal way of paying attention to the world. I tend to use my senses of sight and touch most, so I might visualize what I’d see as I walked up to my front door, or the feel of holding my keys as I got ready to open it.
3) Envision yourself suddenly and strongly remembering your task in the situation you envisioned in step two. It may also work, if you aren’t able to envision your thoughts like that, to visualize yourself taking the first few task-specific steps—for example, if the task is to write an email, you’d want to visualize not just turning on your computer or starting up your email program, but entering the recipient’s name into the from: field and writing the greeting.
If this works for you like it works for me, it should cause the appropriate thought (or task, if you used that variant of step 3) to be triggered at a useful time, and with practice it only takes a few moments to set up, so you can ask the person giving you the reminder to give you a moment to make a mental note of it, and then move on with the conversation. Also, if you do have a trigger like this set up for a given task, it gives you a very good response to repeated reminders: “Yes, I know; I’m planning to do that at whatever particular point in time.”
A further advantage is that since this method causes the reminder to be triggered by something that will happen automatically anyway, you don’t have to keep thinking about it; in fact, I’ve found that my memory will be triggered more reliably when I haven’t worried about the task in the meantime. And if you can let the task go until the trigger reminds you of it, that will reduce the cognitive load that you’re carrying, as well.
There is a noteworthy concern with this method, though: It can make you reliant on your schedule staying consistent. If I have plans to run errands, for example, and add a trigger to go off when I get home from that, then I can’t change my plans without interfering with the trigger—and if the trigger is set for when I come home from the errands, I may not even remember that I had it set at all when I decide to change my errand plans. There are a few ways to work around that; I go with a combination of having a separate mental to-do list as a backup (which I strictly only refer to during mental downtime, and never try to work from directly: another cognitive-resource saving mechanism), and sometimes using a daily review of what I was intending to get done that day, with brief visualizations of all of the transition points where I’m likely to have had a trigger that wasn’t triggered. (“Ok, I was going to get on my bike and go to the craft store and the grocery store, and then bike home, and then… bugger.”)
Overall, I’ve found this to work very well, though.
I’m doing this wrong. How do you prevent tasks from nagging you at other times?
The technique should work even if you find yourself thinking about the task at other times; it just might not work as well, because of the effect that jimrandmoh mentioned about reminders reducing your inclination to do something. A variation of the workaround I mentioned for dealing with others works to mitigate the effect of self-reminders, though—don’t just tell yourself ‘not right now’, tell yourself ‘not right now, but at [time/event]’.
I can’t say much about how to disable involuntary self-reminders altogether, unfortunately. I don’t experience them, and if I ever did, it was long enough ago that I’ve forgotten both that I did and how I stopped. I have, however, read in several different places that using a reliable reminder system (whether one like I’m suggesting, or something more formal like a written or typed list, or whatever) tends to make them eventually stop happening without any particular effort, as the relevant brain-bits learn that the reliable system is in fact reliable, which seems quite plausible to me.
That sounds like a cognitive-load issue at least as much as it sounds like inertia, to me. (Except the being-watched part, that is. I have that quirk too, and I still haven’t figured out what that’s about.) There are things that can be done about that, but most of them are minor tweaks that would need to be personalized for you. I suspect I might have some useful things to say about the fear, too. I’ll PM you my contact info.
What do you mean by “cognitive load”? I read the Wikipedia article on cognitive load theory, but I don’t see the connection.
For me, the being-watched part is about embarrassment. I often need to stop and examine a situation and explicitly model it, when most people would just go ahead naturally. Awkward looks cause anxiety.
The concept I’m talking about is broader than the concept that Wikipedia talks about; it’s the general idea that brains only have so many resources to go around, and that some brains have less resources than others or find certain tasks more costly than others, and that it takes a while for those resources to regenerate. Something like this idea has come up a few times here, mostly regarding willpower specifically (and we’ve found studies supporting it in that case), but my experience is that it’s much more generally applicable then that.
And, if your brain regenerates that resource particularly slowly, and if you haven’t been thinking in terms of conserving that limited resource (or set of resources, depending on how exactly you’re modeling it), it’s fairly easy to set yourself up with a lifestyle that uses the resource faster than it can regenerate, which has pretty much the effect you described. (I’ve experienced it, too, and it’s not an uncommon situation to hear about in the autistic community.)
Yes! It does feel like running out of a scarce resource most people have in heaps. I don’t know exactly how that resource is generated and how to tell how much I have left before I run out, though.
Fortunately, the latter at least seems to be a learnable skill for most people. :)
There is evidence linking people’s limited resources for thought and willpower to their blood glucose, which is another good reason to see a doctor to find out if there’s something physiological underlying some of your problems.
Does thinking about having less of that resource than other people tend to consume it?
That’s a good question. There is a correlation between running out of it and thinking about it, but it’s pretty obvious that most of the causation happens the other way around. Talking about it here doesn’t seem to hurt, so probably not.
I have a couple of questions, MixedNuts:
Have you ever been to a therapist?
What kind of you history do you have regarding any kinds of medical conditions?
What kind of diagnostic information do you currently have? (blood profile, expert assesment, hair analysis, etc.)
What kind of drugs have you been taking, if you’ve been?
What does your diet look like?
I have, for a few months, about a year and a half ago. It was slightly effective. I stopped when I moved and couldn’t get myself to call again.
Nothing that looks like it should matter.
Not much. I had a routine blood test some years ago. Everything was normal, though they probably only measured a few things.
No prescription drugs.
When I’m on campus I eat mostly vegetables, fresh or canned, and some canned fish or meat, and generic cafeteria food (balanced diet plus a heap of French fries); nothing that requires a lot of effort. At my parents’, I eat, um, traditional wholesome food. I eat a lot between meals for comfort, mostly apples. I think my diet is fine in quality but terrible in quantity; I eat way too much and skip meals at random.
Given your symptoms, the best advice I can give you is to see a medical doctor of some kind, probably a psychiatrist, and describe your problems. It has to be someone who can order medical tests and write prescriptions. You might very well have a thyroid problem—they cause all kinds of problems with energy and such—and you need someone who can diagnose them. I don’t know how to get you to a doctor’s office, but I guess you could ask someone else to take you?
How much fresh citrus fruit is there in your diet?
One of the things that helped me with near depression symptoms when i was in another country was consumption of fresh fruit. Apples and pears helped me, but you already are having apples. hmm..
Try some fresh orange/lemon/sweet lime/grapefruit juices. Might help.
Quite a lot, but possibly too sporadically. I’ll try it, thanks.
Okay. Nothing I have will help you. My problems are generally OCD based procrastination loops or modifying bad habits and rituals. Solutions to these assume impulses to do things.
I have nothing that would provide you with impulses to do.
All of my interpretations of “I can’t do X” assume what I mean when I tell myself I can’t do X.
Sorry. If I were actually there I could probably come up with something but I highly doubt I would be able to “see” you well enough through text to be able to find a relevant answer.