Sense 1 and Sense 2 can’t be reliably distinguished from the outside.
As it stands, hyporational’s challenge here seems like a fully general objection to anyone ever complaining about any alleged abuse that isn’t trivial to verify.
It isn’t. It’s an objection against naming people without providing reliable evidence. Complain all you wish for all I care, but if you wish to handle the situation, do it by changing the system, not by taking justice in your own hands.
What am I portraying you as saying that differs from what you’re actually saying? I’m certainly not intentionally putting up strawmen. (If you mean the thing where I agree below that I should have been more explicit, then, er, I agree.)
Sense 1 and Sense 2 can’t be reliably distinguished from the outside.
Indeed they can’t, but they are still different things; it’s reasonable to have different attitudes towards #1 becoming a community norm and towards #2 becoming a community norm; and what encourages #1 and what encourages #2 might be different.
It’s an objection against naming people without providing reliable evidence.
You’re right—I should have said “complaining and providing names”. Sorry about that. I shall edit my comment to clarify.
do it by changing the system, not by taking justice in your own hands.
In what way do you think I’m taking justice into my own hands? What do you think anyone concerned can actually, realistically, do to change the system?
(In principle, one could change the system by changing how the LW karma system works in a way that eliminates the possibility of anonymous mass-downvoting. In practice, so far no one has proposed a change that would accomplish this and so far as I know no one knows of any such change that would work well. And in practice, even with such a change fully designed it would then be necessary to arrange for it to be incorporated into the LW codebase; it is reasonable to suspect that the odds of that are not good.)
(In principle, one could change the system by changing how the LW karma system works in a way that eliminates the possibility of anonymous mass-downvoting. In practice, so far no one has proposed a change that would accomplish this and so far as I know no one knows of any such change that would work well. And in practice, even with such a change fully designed it would then be necessary to arrange for it to be incorporated into the LW codebase; it is reasonable to suspect that the odds of that are not good.)
This is one of the conversations I was hoping would be sparked by my complaint, and is the reason why I did not mention names until pressured. (My cost/benefit analysis of mentioning names may well have been flawed; if it was, I will gladly redact [although I’m not sure how much harm that would mitigate at this point {yay recursive parentheses!}])
I would like to see a system that flags a human administrator to review block downvotes. I agree that having an automatic punishment that flags if you downvote everything is absurd, but that’s a strawman. Something like this is completely viable:
If I am downvoting someone whom I have already downvoted over 70% of their posts, AND their net karma is greater than 60%, automatically forward the downvoted post, and the downvoter’s name, to a human admin for investigation. (I might make the algorithm slightly more aware, and say that [downvotes—upvotes > 70% of posts]).
If the downvotee is clearly a troll, a human admin (who is already trusted with this position) will be in an excellent position to make that judgment. If the downvoter is clearly being retributive, a human admin (who is already trusted with this position) will be in an excellent position to make that judgment.
Since it’s automatic and only triggers on the downvoter’s action, a potential downvotee can’t use it as part of a ‘wounded gazelle’ gambit. Since it punts the actual decision-making to a human whom the community has already invested admin status, ‘literal genie’/automation concerns are replaced with human expertise. The only concern left is that admins will fail to be impartial or will fail to do their job, in which case the community has far bigger problems.
The only concern left is that admins will fail to be impartial or will fail to do their job, in which case the community has far bigger problems.
Also that as the set of tasks described as “their job” increases, it becomes less likely that trusted uncompensated human admins will be interested in the job.
Also that as the set of tasks described as “their job” increases, it becomes less likely that trusted uncompensated human admins will be interested in the job.
...and that, yes. I shall meditate upon this further.
Indeed they can’t, but they are still different things; it’s reasonable to have different attitudes towards #1 becoming a community norm and towards #2 becoming a community norm; and what encourages #1 and what encourages #2 might be different.
Encouraging #1 unavoidably encourages #2 too, because it provides plausible deniability. I have no idea how bad it could get.
You’re right—I should have said “complaining and providing names”. Sorry about that. I shall edit my comment to clarify.
This is what I meant by the strawman, thanks for catching it.
What do you think anyone concerned can actually, realistically, do to change the system?
Take all the people who complain about abuse, and brainstorm what a good system would be like. Make a post about the proposed solutions and have lw people vote. Find a programmer who can do it for free, or pay for one. Ask permission from an admin.
I proposed a solution in an open thread, but can’t find it. The idea was that most mass downvoting happens within a short time period in an angry mood, so limiting the amount of votes one can give within a time period to a particular person could be a solution. People seemed to like it based on the upvotes. It might not work for this particular situation we have here, though, but would at least make mass downvoting a nuisance for the culprit.
This is where I foresee the difficulty, if the change being proposed isn’t very small and simple and unequivocally an improvement.
limiting the amount of votes one can give within a time period to a particular person could be a solution.
Yes, that seems like it would help—though, as you say, maybe not in this case which seems to be either a longstanding grudge or an attempt to intimidate people away from expressing certain sorts of views on LW. Your proposal does have the advantage of being small and simple.
Sense 1 and Sense 2 can’t be reliably distinguished from the outside.
I disagree. There may be specific cases where they are difficult to distinguish, but I think in general it is not so hard to reliably distinguish them. In this particular case, based on the model I’ve formed of ialdabaoth from reading a number of his comments, based on the specific arguments he has offered, and based on what others are saying, I’d assign sense 1 a considerably higher probability than sense 2, and I’m quite confident in this distinction. I would be very surprised if it turned out ialdabaoth was falsely accusing Eugine simply to cause him trouble.
Complain all you wish for all I care, but if you wish to handle the situation, do it by changing the system, not by taking justice in your own hands.
Introducing a norm of naming names is a mechanism for changing the system. It might be a change to the system that does more harm than good, but that is an empirical question, and one on which I suspect you are wrong. Labeling it as “taking justice in your own hands”, and contrasting it with “changing the system”, just seems like well-poisoning, a rhetorical maneuver to sidestep discussion on whether “complaining and naming) is in fact a more effective way of changing the system than thinking up and trying to implement some software solution. Here I mean “effective” not just in terms of the probability of a strategy working, but the probability of the strategy being fully implemented in the first place.
I would be very surprised if it turned out ialdabaoth was falsely accusing Eugine simply to cause him trouble.
I don’t doubt he has some evidence for Eugine being the culprit. That doesn’t mean he didn’t name him to cause him trouble, in fact it’s probably why he did so. I suppose Sense 1 and 2 don’t cover all the possibilities then.
Introducing a norm of naming names is a mechanism for changing the system.
Would you call street justice a system? Do you think the press should publish the names of all people accused of a crime? Do you like the idea of being wrongly named? This is not well poisoning, but trying to establish whether it works anywhere else. You’re expecting quite a lot from lesswrongians here.
Eugine’s karma ratio for the past month has dropped from 75 % to 52 % after he was named. What do you think of that?
Nice strawman.
Sense 1 and Sense 2 can’t be reliably distinguished from the outside.
It isn’t. It’s an objection against naming people without providing reliable evidence. Complain all you wish for all I care, but if you wish to handle the situation, do it by changing the system, not by taking justice in your own hands.
What am I portraying you as saying that differs from what you’re actually saying? I’m certainly not intentionally putting up strawmen. (If you mean the thing where I agree below that I should have been more explicit, then, er, I agree.)
Indeed they can’t, but they are still different things; it’s reasonable to have different attitudes towards #1 becoming a community norm and towards #2 becoming a community norm; and what encourages #1 and what encourages #2 might be different.
You’re right—I should have said “complaining and providing names”. Sorry about that. I shall edit my comment to clarify.
In what way do you think I’m taking justice into my own hands? What do you think anyone concerned can actually, realistically, do to change the system?
(In principle, one could change the system by changing how the LW karma system works in a way that eliminates the possibility of anonymous mass-downvoting. In practice, so far no one has proposed a change that would accomplish this and so far as I know no one knows of any such change that would work well. And in practice, even with such a change fully designed it would then be necessary to arrange for it to be incorporated into the LW codebase; it is reasonable to suspect that the odds of that are not good.)
This is one of the conversations I was hoping would be sparked by my complaint, and is the reason why I did not mention names until pressured. (My cost/benefit analysis of mentioning names may well have been flawed; if it was, I will gladly redact [although I’m not sure how much harm that would mitigate at this point {yay recursive parentheses!}])
I would like to see a system that flags a human administrator to review block downvotes. I agree that having an automatic punishment that flags if you downvote everything is absurd, but that’s a strawman. Something like this is completely viable:
If I am downvoting someone whom I have already downvoted over 70% of their posts, AND their net karma is greater than 60%, automatically forward the downvoted post, and the downvoter’s name, to a human admin for investigation. (I might make the algorithm slightly more aware, and say that [downvotes—upvotes > 70% of posts]).
If the downvotee is clearly a troll, a human admin (who is already trusted with this position) will be in an excellent position to make that judgment. If the downvoter is clearly being retributive, a human admin (who is already trusted with this position) will be in an excellent position to make that judgment.
Since it’s automatic and only triggers on the downvoter’s action, a potential downvotee can’t use it as part of a ‘wounded gazelle’ gambit. Since it punts the actual decision-making to a human whom the community has already invested admin status, ‘literal genie’/automation concerns are replaced with human expertise. The only concern left is that admins will fail to be impartial or will fail to do their job, in which case the community has far bigger problems.
Also that as the set of tasks described as “their job” increases, it becomes less likely that trusted uncompensated human admins will be interested in the job.
...and that, yes. I shall meditate upon this further.
This seems like an excellent solution.
Encouraging #1 unavoidably encourages #2 too, because it provides plausible deniability. I have no idea how bad it could get.
This is what I meant by the strawman, thanks for catching it.
Take all the people who complain about abuse, and brainstorm what a good system would be like. Make a post about the proposed solutions and have lw people vote. Find a programmer who can do it for free, or pay for one. Ask permission from an admin.
I proposed a solution in an open thread, but can’t find it. The idea was that most mass downvoting happens within a short time period in an angry mood, so limiting the amount of votes one can give within a time period to a particular person could be a solution. People seemed to like it based on the upvotes. It might not work for this particular situation we have here, though, but would at least make mass downvoting a nuisance for the culprit.
I’m not sure what the reddit platform allows for.
This is where I foresee the difficulty, if the change being proposed isn’t very small and simple and unequivocally an improvement.
Yes, that seems like it would help—though, as you say, maybe not in this case which seems to be either a longstanding grudge or an attempt to intimidate people away from expressing certain sorts of views on LW. Your proposal does have the advantage of being small and simple.
I disagree. There may be specific cases where they are difficult to distinguish, but I think in general it is not so hard to reliably distinguish them. In this particular case, based on the model I’ve formed of ialdabaoth from reading a number of his comments, based on the specific arguments he has offered, and based on what others are saying, I’d assign sense 1 a considerably higher probability than sense 2, and I’m quite confident in this distinction. I would be very surprised if it turned out ialdabaoth was falsely accusing Eugine simply to cause him trouble.
Introducing a norm of naming names is a mechanism for changing the system. It might be a change to the system that does more harm than good, but that is an empirical question, and one on which I suspect you are wrong. Labeling it as “taking justice in your own hands”, and contrasting it with “changing the system”, just seems like well-poisoning, a rhetorical maneuver to sidestep discussion on whether “complaining and naming) is in fact a more effective way of changing the system than thinking up and trying to implement some software solution. Here I mean “effective” not just in terms of the probability of a strategy working, but the probability of the strategy being fully implemented in the first place.
I don’t doubt he has some evidence for Eugine being the culprit. That doesn’t mean he didn’t name him to cause him trouble, in fact it’s probably why he did so. I suppose Sense 1 and 2 don’t cover all the possibilities then.
Would you call street justice a system? Do you think the press should publish the names of all people accused of a crime? Do you like the idea of being wrongly named? This is not well poisoning, but trying to establish whether it works anywhere else. You’re expecting quite a lot from lesswrongians here.
Eugine’s karma ratio for the past month has dropped from 75 % to 52 % after he was named. What do you think of that?