However, I tend to take Alicorn’s point of view; given that some (many?) men really do think of women in objectifying ways, there’s no way for Alicorn (or anyone) to know if a given offensive phrase is male-speak, or if it ought to be literally interpreted. If one actually knows the speaker well, one could probably tell if such a sentiment is consistent with their personality, but it seems like you’d have to know someone very well to make a reliable judgment there.
Therefore, I do think it is worth the effort to avoid speaking of women in ways that are objectifying. I don’t think it really takes that much effort once one is aware of it...
One could say that Alicorn ought to just assume the best about transgressors, and perhaps she should, but I think there’s some value in enforcing the concept that it’s Not Ok to treat human beings as objects.
Therefore, I do think it is worth the effort to avoid speaking of women in ways that are objectifying. I don’t think it really takes that much effort once one is aware of it...
Don’t get me wrong: I don’t object to being considerate. I just don’t think it’s appropriate to try to enforce being considerate. It tends to backfire, for one thing, as people generally don’t like being told what to do, thereby creating perverse incentives. It also tends to make people on both sides of the discussion “flip the bozo bit” and assume the people on the other side are just jerks, instead of any increased understanding being reached.
(Of course, in that respect, there’s an extent to which I did the exact same thing I criticized Alicorn for! Mea culpa.)
Therefore, I do think it is worth the effort to avoid speaking of women in ways that are objectifying. I don’t think it really takes that much effort once one is aware of it...
And more to the point, we’ve already had a similar conversation and I thought it was apparent at that time that there’s a certain way we want to avoid writing around here, in the interest of inclusivity.
Really, I agree with everything you say here.
However, I tend to take Alicorn’s point of view; given that some (many?) men really do think of women in objectifying ways, there’s no way for Alicorn (or anyone) to know if a given offensive phrase is male-speak, or if it ought to be literally interpreted. If one actually knows the speaker well, one could probably tell if such a sentiment is consistent with their personality, but it seems like you’d have to know someone very well to make a reliable judgment there.
Therefore, I do think it is worth the effort to avoid speaking of women in ways that are objectifying. I don’t think it really takes that much effort once one is aware of it...
One could say that Alicorn ought to just assume the best about transgressors, and perhaps she should, but I think there’s some value in enforcing the concept that it’s Not Ok to treat human beings as objects.
Don’t get me wrong: I don’t object to being considerate. I just don’t think it’s appropriate to try to enforce being considerate. It tends to backfire, for one thing, as people generally don’t like being told what to do, thereby creating perverse incentives. It also tends to make people on both sides of the discussion “flip the bozo bit” and assume the people on the other side are just jerks, instead of any increased understanding being reached.
(Of course, in that respect, there’s an extent to which I did the exact same thing I criticized Alicorn for! Mea culpa.)
And more to the point, we’ve already had a similar conversation and I thought it was apparent at that time that there’s a certain way we want to avoid writing around here, in the interest of inclusivity.