The ‘deli’ down the hall from where I work sells single-serving pizzas. Crappy pizzas—nowhere near as tasty as the burritos from the co-op two blocks away, and more than twice the price. And yet, sometimes I buy them, even when the walk is not a concern.
Variety would explain different drinks. It would not explain significantly-more-expensive, bad-tasting drinks.
But yes, there are many factors that go into a decision. My claim is just that the one typically given—that people like the taste of alcoholic drinks—cannot be correct.
Variety would explain different drinks. It would not explain significantly-more-expensive, bad-tasting drinks.
Except that they don’t taste bad. All the milkshake question shows is that they don’t taste as good as milkshakes. Your insistence on this is puzzling.
But yes, there are many factors that go into a decision. My claim is just that the one typically given—that people like the taste of alcoholic drinks—cannot be correct.
It seems like the simplest hypothesis here is that people who claim to like the taste of alcoholic drinks are for the most part doing so because they like the taste of alcoholic drinks.
I like pepsi more than beer, and drink more pepsi than beer. I also like chicken mcnuggets more than snackwraps, and buy mcnuggets more often than snackwraps. But I still get snackwraps sometimes, even though they’re more expensive. Does it make more sense to chalk that up to signaling, or liking variety?
It seems like the simplest hypothesis here is that people who claim to like the taste of alcoholic drinks are for the most part doing so because they like the taste of alcoholic drinks.
But my point was, this can’t account for how I describe my liking of alcohol the same way as other people, except that I conclude I don’t like the taste of alcohol, while others conclude it means they like the taste. In other words, other people AND I meet the following characteristics:
-Think milkshakes are better tasting than the best alcoholic drink.
-Enjoy the taste of alcoholic drinks when it is drowned out with some other flavor.
-Believe it changes our mental states in a good way.
-Could not comfortably chug down a alcoholic drink the way we might a milkshake.
I classify all of that as “not liking the taste of alcohol, but liking to consume it anyway”. Other people classify all of that as “liking alcohol, including its taste”. Hence the dilemma.
All that your variety examples show is that if you have too much of one thing, you’ll “tire” of it temporarily and want something else. But that’s not what people claim makes them want alcohol. They really claim it’s the taste. They really claim they spend lots of money to get that taste (think about how expensive some wines/liquors are). And they claim it can’t match the taste of milkshakes, which, contrary to your example, people don’t regularly have and aren’t tired of.
People could have all the variety they wanted, and still alcohol wouldn’t be in the top 30 drinks by taste, and people still claim they like the taste. This doesn’t make sense.
Think milkshakes are better tasting than the best alcoholic drink.
I do not share this characteristic.
Enjoy the taste of alcoholic drinks when it is drowned out with some other flavor.
I’ve learned to tolerate ethanol in order to appreciate unique flavors in the alcohol itself.
Believe it changes our mental states in a good way.
I dislike all the mental effects of alcohol and would drink it more often if it lacked these effects.
Could not comfortably chug down a alcoholic drink the way we might a milkshake.
Agreed, only insofar as this is a point against milkshakes. If I am drinking something for the flavor, I wish to savor it slowly; otherwise, I am drinking it for sustenance in which case if I’m drinking alcohol or milkshakes something has gone terribly, terribly wrong.
People could have all the variety they wanted, and still alcohol wouldn’t be in the top 30 drinks by taste, and people still claim they like the taste. This doesn’t make sense.
I’m pretty sure some alcoholic drinks would make it into my top 30, actually.
And yes, even if alcohol doesn’t make it into the top 30, it still makes sense. It’s entirely possible to like more than 30 things. Something not making it into my ‘top 30’ (or ‘top X’ for whatever X) doesn’t mean I don’t like it.
Also, I don’t see your list above logically implying not liking alcoholic drinks (though I couldn’t ‘chug’ a milkshake, so that might be relevant). If you add ‘I like the taste of alcoholic drinks’ I don’t see any contradiction, or even a tension, with the things you list.
Given the variety of counterarguments you have been exposed to, I would think that re-examining the claim with stricter scientific controls would be appropriate.
Really? The quality of the counterarguments doesn’t matter, just their variety?
I’m going to refer back to Science isn’t Strict Enough. The observations I’ve made simply shouldn’t happen if the predominant theory, (“People accurately describe how much they like the taste of alcohol”) were true. The fact that I didn’t set up scientific controls doesn’t change this.
If wine were really so great tasting, worth analyzing all the subtle nuances, worth paying obscene amounts for the best wines, there simply shouldn’t be a wine expert who prefers the taste of milkshakes to the taste of the best wine. That observation forces an huge update in beliefs, even before an official experiement.
If anything, the ones who should be updating are those who are suprised to see people coming out of the woodwork and admitting they actually don’t like the taste of alcohol.
Really? The quality of the counterarguments doesn’t matter, just their variety?
*sighs*
Something which is true is true whichever way you approach it. The variety of counterarguments—all of which are good arguments, I would not cite them otherwise—shows that many angles of approach to your claim show contrary evidence. So far as I have been informed, your personal evidence is not so overwhelming as to require our contrary evidence to be explained by other means. While it is interesting that your peers predominantly prefer the flavor of milkshakes to their favorite alcoholic beverages, more than that is needed to show that millions of people are deluding themselves.
If wine were really so great tasting, worth analyzing all the subtle nuances, worth paying obscene amounts for the best wines, there simply shouldn’t be a wine expert who prefers the taste of milkshakes to the taste of the best wine. That observation forces an huge update in beliefs, even before an official experiement.
I can’t believe you’re still making this case. While I don’t personally much value the opinions of ‘wine experts’, I see no contradiction in:
Wine is great-tasting and worth spending lots of money on.
Some wine experts like the taste of milkshakes better than the taste of wine.
In fact, I would be surprised if there were no wine experts who preferred the taste of milkshakes, even if it were the case that most people prefer the taste of wine. People like many things, all at the same time, to different degrees.
If anything, the ones who should be updating are those who are suprised to see people coming out of the woodwork and admitting they actually don’t like the taste of alcohol.
I so far haven’t observed anyone acting surprised that there are people who don’t like the taste of alcohol. Straw man?
I so far haven’t observed anyone acting surprised that there are people who don’t like the taste of alcohol.
I guess you haven’t met anyone I’ve talked to in person about this...
I would be surprised if there were no wine experts who preferred the taste of milkshakes, even if it were the case that most people prefer the taste of wine. People like many things, all at the same time, to different degrees.
Well, this is where we disagree. I can’t imagine there being something with such exquisite taste that I’d be willing to pay $100 just to experience that taste, when it’s not even better than a milkshake. (I have paid more than $100 for food/drinks before, I’m sure, but obviously the scenario gave me more than the taste of something delicious.)
I have paid more than $100 for food/drinks before, I’m sure, but obviously the scenario gave me more than the taste of something delicious.
Well clearly alcohol also gives you something more than the taste of something delicious. But your claim is that practically no one likes the taste of alcohol, and I don’t think you really have enough evidence to support that.
And yes, that is clearly where we differ. I’ve in the past paid hundreds or thousands of dollars mostly just for particular sensory experiences, and could see much wealthier people being willing to pay a lot more.
ETA: Also, I’m skeptical of a monocausal explanation of anything. It seems much more likely to me that people like both the taste and intoxicating effects of alcohol, than that they just like the effects and erroneously report liking the taste.
I prefer the taste of wine to the taste of milkshakes.
I would much rather drink wine than (sickly sweet) milkshakes if given the choice between them.
If only one were on offer, though, I would drink whichever was on offer.
But if I had the option to choose to pay for one or the other—I would choose to pay for wine… even if it were more expensive. I’d do this even if there were no alcohol. Even if there were no other people around to show off my status to.
because it tastes better (to me) ie—it ranks higher in my preference ordering purely on taste.
It doesn’t matter how many people you find that have a different preference ordering to mine… the fact that even just one person has their preference ordering this way around says that your theory is incorrect.
The ‘deli’ down the hall from where I work sells single-serving pizzas. Crappy pizzas—nowhere near as tasty as the burritos from the co-op two blocks away, and more than twice the price. And yet, sometimes I buy them, even when the walk is not a concern.
I think you underestimate the desire for variety.
Variety would explain different drinks. It would not explain significantly-more-expensive, bad-tasting drinks.
But yes, there are many factors that go into a decision. My claim is just that the one typically given—that people like the taste of alcoholic drinks—cannot be correct.
Except that they don’t taste bad. All the milkshake question shows is that they don’t taste as good as milkshakes. Your insistence on this is puzzling.
It seems like the simplest hypothesis here is that people who claim to like the taste of alcoholic drinks are for the most part doing so because they like the taste of alcoholic drinks.
I like pepsi more than beer, and drink more pepsi than beer. I also like chicken mcnuggets more than snackwraps, and buy mcnuggets more often than snackwraps. But I still get snackwraps sometimes, even though they’re more expensive. Does it make more sense to chalk that up to signaling, or liking variety?
But my point was, this can’t account for how I describe my liking of alcohol the same way as other people, except that I conclude I don’t like the taste of alcohol, while others conclude it means they like the taste. In other words, other people AND I meet the following characteristics:
-Think milkshakes are better tasting than the best alcoholic drink.
-Enjoy the taste of alcoholic drinks when it is drowned out with some other flavor.
-Believe it changes our mental states in a good way.
-Could not comfortably chug down a alcoholic drink the way we might a milkshake.
I classify all of that as “not liking the taste of alcohol, but liking to consume it anyway”. Other people classify all of that as “liking alcohol, including its taste”. Hence the dilemma.
All that your variety examples show is that if you have too much of one thing, you’ll “tire” of it temporarily and want something else. But that’s not what people claim makes them want alcohol. They really claim it’s the taste. They really claim they spend lots of money to get that taste (think about how expensive some wines/liquors are). And they claim it can’t match the taste of milkshakes, which, contrary to your example, people don’t regularly have and aren’t tired of.
People could have all the variety they wanted, and still alcohol wouldn’t be in the top 30 drinks by taste, and people still claim they like the taste. This doesn’t make sense.
Just to add another counterexample:
I do not share this characteristic.
I’ve learned to tolerate ethanol in order to appreciate unique flavors in the alcohol itself.
I dislike all the mental effects of alcohol and would drink it more often if it lacked these effects.
Agreed, only insofar as this is a point against milkshakes. If I am drinking something for the flavor, I wish to savor it slowly; otherwise, I am drinking it for sustenance in which case if I’m drinking alcohol or milkshakes something has gone terribly, terribly wrong.
I’m pretty sure some alcoholic drinks would make it into my top 30, actually.
And yes, even if alcohol doesn’t make it into the top 30, it still makes sense. It’s entirely possible to like more than 30 things. Something not making it into my ‘top 30’ (or ‘top X’ for whatever X) doesn’t mean I don’t like it.
Also, I don’t see your list above logically implying not liking alcoholic drinks (though I couldn’t ‘chug’ a milkshake, so that might be relevant). If you add ‘I like the taste of alcoholic drinks’ I don’t see any contradiction, or even a tension, with the things you list.
Given the variety of counterarguments you have been exposed to, I would think that re-examining the claim with stricter scientific controls would be appropriate.
Really? The quality of the counterarguments doesn’t matter, just their variety?
I’m going to refer back to Science isn’t Strict Enough. The observations I’ve made simply shouldn’t happen if the predominant theory, (“People accurately describe how much they like the taste of alcohol”) were true. The fact that I didn’t set up scientific controls doesn’t change this.
If wine were really so great tasting, worth analyzing all the subtle nuances, worth paying obscene amounts for the best wines, there simply shouldn’t be a wine expert who prefers the taste of milkshakes to the taste of the best wine. That observation forces an huge update in beliefs, even before an official experiement.
If anything, the ones who should be updating are those who are suprised to see people coming out of the woodwork and admitting they actually don’t like the taste of alcohol.
*sighs*
Something which is true is true whichever way you approach it. The variety of counterarguments—all of which are good arguments, I would not cite them otherwise—shows that many angles of approach to your claim show contrary evidence. So far as I have been informed, your personal evidence is not so overwhelming as to require our contrary evidence to be explained by other means. While it is interesting that your peers predominantly prefer the flavor of milkshakes to their favorite alcoholic beverages, more than that is needed to show that millions of people are deluding themselves.
I can’t believe you’re still making this case. While I don’t personally much value the opinions of ‘wine experts’, I see no contradiction in:
Wine is great-tasting and worth spending lots of money on.
Some wine experts like the taste of milkshakes better than the taste of wine.
In fact, I would be surprised if there were no wine experts who preferred the taste of milkshakes, even if it were the case that most people prefer the taste of wine. People like many things, all at the same time, to different degrees.
I so far haven’t observed anyone acting surprised that there are people who don’t like the taste of alcohol. Straw man?
I guess you haven’t met anyone I’ve talked to in person about this...
Well, this is where we disagree. I can’t imagine there being something with such exquisite taste that I’d be willing to pay $100 just to experience that taste, when it’s not even better than a milkshake. (I have paid more than $100 for food/drinks before, I’m sure, but obviously the scenario gave me more than the taste of something delicious.)
Well clearly alcohol also gives you something more than the taste of something delicious. But your claim is that practically no one likes the taste of alcohol, and I don’t think you really have enough evidence to support that.
And yes, that is clearly where we differ. I’ve in the past paid hundreds or thousands of dollars mostly just for particular sensory experiences, and could see much wealthier people being willing to pay a lot more.
ETA: Also, I’m skeptical of a monocausal explanation of anything. It seems much more likely to me that people like both the taste and intoxicating effects of alcohol, than that they just like the effects and erroneously report liking the taste.
I prefer the taste of wine to the taste of milkshakes. I would much rather drink wine than (sickly sweet) milkshakes if given the choice between them.
If only one were on offer, though, I would drink whichever was on offer. But if I had the option to choose to pay for one or the other—I would choose to pay for wine… even if it were more expensive. I’d do this even if there were no alcohol. Even if there were no other people around to show off my status to. because it tastes better (to me) ie—it ranks higher in my preference ordering purely on taste.
It doesn’t matter how many people you find that have a different preference ordering to mine… the fact that even just one person has their preference ordering this way around says that your theory is incorrect.