One of the ways this whole discussion feels frame controlled is that it implies an axis that ranges from “doesn’t frame control” to “frame controls a lot,” with roles of dominance and submission or victimization being most salient.
My experience of social life is a series of frame contests, frame improv, frame play, frame ignoring, frame neglect, frame fights, frame pandering, frame curiosity. Frames can establish a hierarchy, and that’s an important function, but I feel like the subtle implication here is that people are just going around being unwitting victims of the dominant frames of dominant people—an implication of a lot of inauthenticity, of some problematic psychology that needs to be resisted.
What I think is problematic is that some people are able to make genuine threats to get their way, enforcing compliance with their values and language and preferences and norms without the other person feeing as thought they’ve consented. They intimidate others, and if they are seen by the group to have succeeded, it becomes common knowledge that they call the shots. Frame control is the result, but it’s straightforward intimidation and threats that were the original sin in this case. We see that with the guru as well as the weak friend.
What I think is problematic is that some people are able to make genuine threats to get their way, enforcing compliance with their values and language and preferences and norms
One of my main points here is that I think we probably should call threatening behavior “threatening” and maybe “coercive” or “abusive” or whatever seems appropriate for the situation, and only use the phrase ‘frame control’ when the most relevant thing is that someone is controlling a frame. (And, maybe, even then try to say a more specific thing about what they’re doing, if you can)
And meanwhile, talk about “frame-whatever” when you’re talking about frame-whatever, whether that be frame-manipulation, or frame-curiosity.
without the other person feeing as thought they’ve consented
I actually think the thing that makes frame control a particular important component of abuse or coercion is it’s one of the tools that let’s an abuser make it ambiguous whether someone consented. Where Alice ends up feeling like they sort of consented, but something feels wrong about it and they don’t have good words for it and there’s a bunch of social pressure and they end up thinking ‘well… I guess I consented so I have to do this now...?’ but feel sick in their stomach about it.
(I think there are also ways to invoke this effect without frame manipulation. I’m not sure if there’s a good name for the generalize effect. ‘manipulated consent?’, ‘ambiguous consent?’)
One of the ways this whole discussion feels frame controlled is that it implies an axis that ranges from “doesn’t frame control” to “frame controls a lot,” with roles of dominance and submission or victimization being most salient.
My experience of social life is a series of frame contests, frame improv, frame play, frame ignoring, frame neglect, frame fights, frame pandering, frame curiosity. Frames can establish a hierarchy, and that’s an important function, but I feel like the subtle implication here is that people are just going around being unwitting victims of the dominant frames of dominant people—an implication of a lot of inauthenticity, of some problematic psychology that needs to be resisted.
What I think is problematic is that some people are able to make genuine threats to get their way, enforcing compliance with their values and language and preferences and norms without the other person feeing as thought they’ve consented. They intimidate others, and if they are seen by the group to have succeeded, it becomes common knowledge that they call the shots. Frame control is the result, but it’s straightforward intimidation and threats that were the original sin in this case. We see that with the guru as well as the weak friend.
One of my main points here is that I think we probably should call threatening behavior “threatening” and maybe “coercive” or “abusive” or whatever seems appropriate for the situation, and only use the phrase ‘frame control’ when the most relevant thing is that someone is controlling a frame. (And, maybe, even then try to say a more specific thing about what they’re doing, if you can)
And meanwhile, talk about “frame-whatever” when you’re talking about frame-whatever, whether that be frame-manipulation, or frame-curiosity.
I actually think the thing that makes frame control a particular important component of abuse or coercion is it’s one of the tools that let’s an abuser make it ambiguous whether someone consented. Where Alice ends up feeling like they sort of consented, but something feels wrong about it and they don’t have good words for it and there’s a bunch of social pressure and they end up thinking ‘well… I guess I consented so I have to do this now...?’ but feel sick in their stomach about it.
(I think there are also ways to invoke this effect without frame manipulation. I’m not sure if there’s a good name for the generalize effect. ‘manipulated consent?’, ‘ambiguous consent?’)