A thing that occurs to me, as I started engaging with some comments here as well as on a FB thread about this:
Coercion/Abuse/Manipulation/Gaslighting* often feel traumatic and triggering, which makes talking about them hard.
One of the particular problems with manipulation is that it’s deliberately hard to take about or find words to explain what’s wrong about it. (if you could easily point to the manipulation, it wouldn’t be very successful manipulation). Successful manipulators tailor their manipulations towards precisely the areas where their marks don’t have the ability to see clearly or explain clearly what happened.
A particularly bad-feeling thing, that I’ve experienced when I’ve felt gaslit, and that other people have experienced from me when they felt gaslit, is: “try to explain what happened and why you’re upset, and people respond in a way that’s questioning everything you say, nitpicking your phrasing”, in way that’s sort of demanding you be fair when you’re still confused about what exactly went wrong. And it feels really invalidating and alienating at a time when you’re maybe doubting your own sanity because you were literally manipulated into doubting your own sanity.
(and sometimes when this happens you are the crazy one, but the point here is that it’s still a pretty awful feeling experience, and from inside it’s not clear whether you’re the crazy one)
I’ve had a really hard time figuring out how to respond to this when I’m the one asking the questions – often the person-who-feels-gaslit is making some kinda overreactive, unfair claims. I struggle sometimes with how to validate their general sense of self and respect that there is something real they are trying to work through, without necessarily agreeing with all of their frame in the process.
...
So… recapping, relevant here because a) this post is about frame control, and trying to draw better distinctions around it. b) the reason frame control is an important concept is largely because of how it relates to coercion, manipulation, abuse, etc. c) people discussing object level versions of that are likely to be triggered...
...and one of the things I’m doing with this post is trying to taboo some words, and make some distinctions, and potentially say “okay, this thing that happened maybe doesn’t make sense to call frame control, maybe it makes sense to call it X, maybe it makes sense to call it Y”.
And to a person who is in the middle of discussing something that was maybe traumatic that they haven’t quite worked through, having someone argue about what-exactly-to-call-the-experiences-they had may end up feeling like exactly the sort of pedantic invalidation that can be extra bad feeling.
(I don’t know that this has happened yet, but it seemed like it might happen suddenly)
So, uh, for now, just warning people to keep an eye out for this dynamic.
Meanwhile, I do want to say “even if I’m trying to do some original seeing on ‘what even is frame control’ and trying to figure out precise language for it”, I still want to reaffirm that if something happened to you that felt really bad, like, I agree that something bad happened, whatever words turn out to be right for describing it and whatever the exact causation turns out to be.
try to explain what happened and why you’re upset, and people respond in a way that’s questioning everything you say, nitpicking your phrasing
This sounds like when you have a pre-verbal understanding (felt sense) of something, and people are like: “if you immediately cannot translate it to legible words, it is not legit”. Problem is, even if you do your best to translate it to the words immediately, those words will most likely be wrong somehow. Pointing out the problem with the (prematurely chosen) words will then be used to dismiss the feeling as a signal.
You still know that the feeling is a signal of something, but under such circumstances is becomes impossible to figure out what exactly.
The nice thing would be instead to listen, and maybe collaborate on finding the words, which is an iterative process of someone proposing the words, and you providing feedback on what fits and what does not.
Yeah, basically agreed that this is what’s going on.
I agree that listening in a collaborative way is a good thing to do when you have a friend/colleague in this situation.
I’m not sure what to do in the context of this post, if the problem comes up organically. The collaborative listening thing seems to work best in a two-person pair, not an internet forum. I guess “wait for it to come up” is fine.
A thing that occurs to me, as I started engaging with some comments here as well as on a FB thread about this:
Coercion/Abuse/Manipulation/Gaslighting* often feel traumatic and triggering, which makes talking about them hard.
One of the particular problems with manipulation is that it’s deliberately hard to take about or find words to explain what’s wrong about it. (if you could easily point to the manipulation, it wouldn’t be very successful manipulation). Successful manipulators tailor their manipulations towards precisely the areas where their marks don’t have the ability to see clearly or explain clearly what happened.
A particularly bad-feeling thing, that I’ve experienced when I’ve felt gaslit, and that other people have experienced from me when they felt gaslit, is: “try to explain what happened and why you’re upset, and people respond in a way that’s questioning everything you say, nitpicking your phrasing”, in way that’s sort of demanding you be fair when you’re still confused about what exactly went wrong. And it feels really invalidating and alienating at a time when you’re maybe doubting your own sanity because you were literally manipulated into doubting your own sanity.
(and sometimes when this happens you are the crazy one, but the point here is that it’s still a pretty awful feeling experience, and from inside it’s not clear whether you’re the crazy one)
I’ve had a really hard time figuring out how to respond to this when I’m the one asking the questions – often the person-who-feels-gaslit is making some kinda overreactive, unfair claims. I struggle sometimes with how to validate their general sense of self and respect that there is something real they are trying to work through, without necessarily agreeing with all of their frame in the process.
...
So… recapping, relevant here because a) this post is about frame control, and trying to draw better distinctions around it. b) the reason frame control is an important concept is largely because of how it relates to coercion, manipulation, abuse, etc. c) people discussing object level versions of that are likely to be triggered...
...and one of the things I’m doing with this post is trying to taboo some words, and make some distinctions, and potentially say “okay, this thing that happened maybe doesn’t make sense to call frame control, maybe it makes sense to call it X, maybe it makes sense to call it Y”.
And to a person who is in the middle of discussing something that was maybe traumatic that they haven’t quite worked through, having someone argue about what-exactly-to-call-the-experiences-they had may end up feeling like exactly the sort of pedantic invalidation that can be extra bad feeling.
(I don’t know that this has happened yet, but it seemed like it might happen suddenly)
So, uh, for now, just warning people to keep an eye out for this dynamic.
Meanwhile, I do want to say “even if I’m trying to do some original seeing on ‘what even is frame control’ and trying to figure out precise language for it”, I still want to reaffirm that if something happened to you that felt really bad, like, I agree that something bad happened, whatever words turn out to be right for describing it and whatever the exact causation turns out to be.
This sounds like when you have a pre-verbal understanding (felt sense) of something, and people are like: “if you immediately cannot translate it to legible words, it is not legit”. Problem is, even if you do your best to translate it to the words immediately, those words will most likely be wrong somehow. Pointing out the problem with the (prematurely chosen) words will then be used to dismiss the feeling as a signal.
You still know that the feeling is a signal of something, but under such circumstances is becomes impossible to figure out what exactly.
The nice thing would be instead to listen, and maybe collaborate on finding the words, which is an iterative process of someone proposing the words, and you providing feedback on what fits and what does not.
Yeah, basically agreed that this is what’s going on.
I agree that listening in a collaborative way is a good thing to do when you have a friend/colleague in this situation.
I’m not sure what to do in the context of this post, if the problem comes up organically. The collaborative listening thing seems to work best in a two-person pair, not an internet forum. I guess “wait for it to come up” is fine.