So I have more objections to some of this, but I maybe want to take a moment to say:
I do really appreciate that you are here trying to push for good epistemic standards. I definitely think each of the considerations you’re raising are really important. I don’t feel that confident that we made the right call, and I think each of the points you’re making should be a pretty strong default that you need a really good reason to deviate from.
I think you’re wrong about specific points like “Nonlinear couldn’t do anything to indefinitely delay publication” and “Ben had the info and could do what he felt he ought independent of Nonlinear’s actions.”
But, mostly right now it feels like you have one really strong/clear frame of how to do truthseeking. I think “investigative journalism ethics” is one particular frame, but neither the only frame for collective truthseeking nor for “figuring out how a community can/should protect itself from manipulative people.”
I can totally buy deciding, in a few weeks, that, yep, Ben fucked up here. And fwiw I also don’t have any objection to you writing your post now rather than later (I thought that was a pretty weird objection on Habryka’s part, given the circumstances). But, I do wish you were putting more effort into asking “is my conception of truthseeking and set of tradeoffs actually right in all circumstances?”.
The fact that it’s not material to you what’s up with Nonlinear and whether they were bad, feels like it’s missing a major part of the conversation.
Right now tensions are already high and I’m not sure how achievable it is to have a real conversation about it in the immediate future. I’m also just pretty busy right now with unrelated stuff. But fwiw I’d be interested in doing a dialogue with you about that. (I do think that format is somehow better than comment sections at maintaining mutual truthseeking vibe)
I appreciate this response and would love to dive into it more. I’m only loosely familiar with the dialogue format on this site but am definitely game, though I’d request an asynchronous one since I prefer having time to gather my thoughts and maintaining a bit of flexibility around each of our schedules.
So I have more objections to some of this, but I maybe want to take a moment to say:
I do really appreciate that you are here trying to push for good epistemic standards. I definitely think each of the considerations you’re raising are really important. I don’t feel that confident that we made the right call, and I think each of the points you’re making should be a pretty strong default that you need a really good reason to deviate from.
I think you’re wrong about specific points like “Nonlinear couldn’t do anything to indefinitely delay publication” and “Ben had the info and could do what he felt he ought independent of Nonlinear’s actions.”
But, mostly right now it feels like you have one really strong/clear frame of how to do truthseeking. I think “investigative journalism ethics” is one particular frame, but neither the only frame for collective truthseeking nor for “figuring out how a community can/should protect itself from manipulative people.”
I can totally buy deciding, in a few weeks, that, yep, Ben fucked up here. And fwiw I also don’t have any objection to you writing your post now rather than later (I thought that was a pretty weird objection on Habryka’s part, given the circumstances). But, I do wish you were putting more effort into asking “is my conception of truthseeking and set of tradeoffs actually right in all circumstances?”.
The fact that it’s not material to you what’s up with Nonlinear and whether they were bad, feels like it’s missing a major part of the conversation.
Right now tensions are already high and I’m not sure how achievable it is to have a real conversation about it in the immediate future. I’m also just pretty busy right now with unrelated stuff. But fwiw I’d be interested in doing a dialogue with you about that. (I do think that format is somehow better than comment sections at maintaining mutual truthseeking vibe)
I appreciate this response and would love to dive into it more. I’m only loosely familiar with the dialogue format on this site but am definitely game, though I’d request an asynchronous one since I prefer having time to gather my thoughts and maintaining a bit of flexibility around each of our schedules.
Yep reasonable. I’m busy this week but if it still feels promising next week can followup then.