Um, not my decision again. It was predetermined whether I would look both ways or not.
So the next time you cross the street, are you going to look both ways or not? You can’t calculate the physical consequences of every particle interaction taking place in your brain, so taking the route the universe takes, i.e. just let every play out at the lowest level, is not an option for you and your limited processing power. And yet, for some reason, I suspect you’ll probably answer that you will look both ways, despite being unable to actually predict your brain-state at the time of crossing the street. So if you can’t actually predict your decisions perfectly as dictated by physics… how do you know that you’ll actually look both ways next time you cross the street?
The answer is simple: you don’t know for certain. But you know that, all things being equal, you prefer not getting hit by a car to getting hit by a car. And looking both ways helps to lower the probability of getting hit by a car. Therefore, given knowledge of your preferences and your decision algorithm, you will choose to look both ways.
Note that nowhere in the above explanation was determinism violated! Every step of the physics plays out as it should… and yet we observe that your choice still exists here! Determinism explains free will, not explains it away; just because everything is determined doesn’t mean your choice doesn’t exist! You still have to choose; if I ask you if you were forced to reply to my comment earlier by the Absolute Power of Determinism, or if you chose to write that comment of your own accord, I suspect you’ll answer the latter.
Likewise, Omega may have predicted your decision, but that decision still falls to you to make. Just because Omega predicted what you would do doesn’t mean you can get away with not choosing, or choosing sub-optimally. If I said, “I predict that tomorrow Lumifer will jump off a cliff,” would you do it? Of course not. Conversely, if I said, “I predict that tomorrow Lumifer will not jump off a cliff,” would you do it? Still of course not. Your choice exists regardless of whether there’s some agent out there predicting what you do.
Therefore, given knowledge of your preferences and your decision algorithm, you will choose to look both ways.
Well, actually, it depends. Descending from flights of imagination down to earth, I sometimes look and sometimes don’t. How do I know there isn’t a car coming? In some cases hearing is enough. It depends.
nowhere in the above explanation was determinism violated!
You are mistaken. If my actions are predetermined, I chose nothing. You may prefer to use the word “choice” within determinism, I prefer not to.
just because everything is determined doesn’t mean your choice doesn’t exist
Yes, it does mean that. And, I’m afraid, just you asserting something—even with force—doesn’t make it automatically true.
Your choice exists regardless of whether there’s some agent out there predicting what you do.
Of course, but that’s not we are talking about. We are talking about whether choice exists at all.
just because everything is determined doesn’t mean your choice doesn’t exist
Yes, it does mean that.
Okay, it seems like we’re just arguing definitions now. Taboo “choice” and any synonyms. Now that we have done that, I’m going to specify what I mean when I use the word “choice”: the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation. If there is something in this definition that you feel does not capture the essence of “choice” as it relates to Newcomb’s Problem, please point out exactly where you think this occurs, as well as why it is relevant in the context of Newcomb’s Problem. In the meantime, I’m going to proceed with this definition.
So, in the above quote of mine, replacing “choice” with my definition gives you:
just because everything is determined doesn’t mean the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation doesn’t exist
We see that the above quote is trivially true, and I assert that “the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation” is what matters in Newcomb’s Problem. If you have any disagreements, again, I would ask that you outline exactly what those disagreements are, as opposed to providing qualitative objections that sound pithy but don’t really move the discussion forward. Thank you in advance for your time and understanding.
I’m going to specify what I mean when I use the word “choice”: the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation.
Sure, you can define the word “choice” that way. The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Keep in mind that my goal here is not perpetuate disagreement or to scold you for being stupid; it’s to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement. Thus far, your comments have been annoyingly evasive and don’t really help me understand your position better, which has caused me to update toward you not actually having a coherent position on this. Presumably, you think you do have a coherent position, in which case I’d be much gratified if you’d just lay out everything that leads up to your position in one fell swoop rather than forcing myself and others to ask questions repeatedly in hope of clarification. Thank you.
I think it became clear that this debate is pointless the moment proving determinism became a prerequisite for getting anywhere.
I did try a different approach, but that was mostly dodged. I suspect Lumifer wants determinism to be a prerequisite; the freedom to do that slippery debate dance of theirs is so much greater then.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
Introspection.
What’s your basis for arguing that it does exist?
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement.
Well, the differences are pretty clear. In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t. It’s quite an old debate, at least a couple of millennia old and maybe more.
I am not quite sure why do you have difficulties accepting that some people think free will exists. It’s not a that unusual position to hold.
No offense, but this is a textbook example of an answer that sounds pithy but tells me, in a word, nothing. What exactly am I supposed to get out of this? How am I supposed to argue against this? This is a one-word answer that acts as a blackbox, preventing anyone from actually getting anything worthwhile out of it—just like “emergence”. I have asked you several times now to lay out exactly what your disagreement is. Unless you and I have wildly varying definitions of the word “exactly”, you have repeatedly failed to do so. You have displayed no desire to actually elucidate your position to the point where it would actually be arguable. I would characterize your replies to my requests so far as a near-perfect example of logical rudeness. My probability estimate of you actually wanting to go somewhere with this conversation is getting lower and lower...
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing. The flippancy this sort of remark exhibits suggests to me that you are more interested in winning than in truth-seeking. If you think I am characterizing your attitude uncharitably, please feel free to correct me on this point.
In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases. (An exception would be if you were trying to refer directly to the phrase, in which case you would put it in quotation marks, e.g. “free will”.) Now then, what were you saying?
You are supposed to get out of this that you’re asking me to prove a negative and I don’t see a way to do this other than say “I’ve looked and found nothing” (aka introspection). How do you expect me to prove that I do NOT have a deterministic algorithm running my mind?
How am I supposed to argue against this?
You are not supposed to argue against this. You are supposed to say “Aha, so this a point where we disagree and there doesn’t appear to be a way to prove it one way or another”.
you have repeatedly failed to do so.
From my point of view you repeatedly refused to understand what I’ve been saying. You spent all your time telling me, but not listening.
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing.
Oh, it does. It asserts that you are treating determinism as a natural and default answer and the burden is upon me to prove it wrong. I disagree.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases.
Why? This is the core of my position. If you think I’m confused by words, tell me how am I confused. It the problem that you don’t understand me? I doubt this.
Are you talking about libertarian free will? The uncaused causer? I would have hoped that LWers wouldn’t believe such absurd things. Perhaps this isn’t the right place for you if you still reject reductionism.
If you’re just going to provide every banal objection that you can without evidence or explanation in order to block discussion from moving forward, you might as well just stop posting.
So the next time you cross the street, are you going to look both ways or not? You can’t calculate the physical consequences of every particle interaction taking place in your brain, so taking the route the universe takes, i.e. just let every play out at the lowest level, is not an option for you and your limited processing power. And yet, for some reason, I suspect you’ll probably answer that you will look both ways, despite being unable to actually predict your brain-state at the time of crossing the street. So if you can’t actually predict your decisions perfectly as dictated by physics… how do you know that you’ll actually look both ways next time you cross the street?
The answer is simple: you don’t know for certain. But you know that, all things being equal, you prefer not getting hit by a car to getting hit by a car. And looking both ways helps to lower the probability of getting hit by a car. Therefore, given knowledge of your preferences and your decision algorithm, you will choose to look both ways.
Note that nowhere in the above explanation was determinism violated! Every step of the physics plays out as it should… and yet we observe that your choice still exists here! Determinism explains free will, not explains it away; just because everything is determined doesn’t mean your choice doesn’t exist! You still have to choose; if I ask you if you were forced to reply to my comment earlier by the Absolute Power of Determinism, or if you chose to write that comment of your own accord, I suspect you’ll answer the latter.
Likewise, Omega may have predicted your decision, but that decision still falls to you to make. Just because Omega predicted what you would do doesn’t mean you can get away with not choosing, or choosing sub-optimally. If I said, “I predict that tomorrow Lumifer will jump off a cliff,” would you do it? Of course not. Conversely, if I said, “I predict that tomorrow Lumifer will not jump off a cliff,” would you do it? Still of course not. Your choice exists regardless of whether there’s some agent out there predicting what you do.
Well, actually, it depends. Descending from flights of imagination down to earth, I sometimes look and sometimes don’t. How do I know there isn’t a car coming? In some cases hearing is enough. It depends.
You are mistaken. If my actions are predetermined, I chose nothing. You may prefer to use the word “choice” within determinism, I prefer not to.
Yes, it does mean that. And, I’m afraid, just you asserting something—even with force—doesn’t make it automatically true.
Of course, but that’s not we are talking about. We are talking about whether choice exists at all.
Okay, it seems like we’re just arguing definitions now. Taboo “choice” and any synonyms. Now that we have done that, I’m going to specify what I mean when I use the word “choice”: the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation. If there is something in this definition that you feel does not capture the essence of “choice” as it relates to Newcomb’s Problem, please point out exactly where you think this occurs, as well as why it is relevant in the context of Newcomb’s Problem. In the meantime, I’m going to proceed with this definition.
So, in the above quote of mine, replacing “choice” with my definition gives you:
We see that the above quote is trivially true, and I assert that “the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation” is what matters in Newcomb’s Problem. If you have any disagreements, again, I would ask that you outline exactly what those disagreements are, as opposed to providing qualitative objections that sound pithy but don’t really move the discussion forward. Thank you in advance for your time and understanding.
Sure, you can define the word “choice” that way. The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Keep in mind that my goal here is not perpetuate disagreement or to scold you for being stupid; it’s to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement. Thus far, your comments have been annoyingly evasive and don’t really help me understand your position better, which has caused me to update toward you not actually having a coherent position on this. Presumably, you think you do have a coherent position, in which case I’d be much gratified if you’d just lay out everything that leads up to your position in one fell swoop rather than forcing myself and others to ask questions repeatedly in hope of clarification. Thank you.
I think it became clear that this debate is pointless the moment proving determinism became a prerequisite for getting anywhere.
I did try a different approach, but that was mostly dodged. I suspect Lumifer wants determinism to be a prerequisite; the freedom to do that slippery debate dance of theirs is so much greater then.
Either way, yeah. I’d let this die.
Introspection.
What’s your basis for arguing that it does exist?
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
Well, the differences are pretty clear. In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t. It’s quite an old debate, at least a couple of millennia old and maybe more.
I am not quite sure why do you have difficulties accepting that some people think free will exists. It’s not a that unusual position to hold.
No offense, but this is a textbook example of an answer that sounds pithy but tells me, in a word, nothing. What exactly am I supposed to get out of this? How am I supposed to argue against this? This is a one-word answer that acts as a blackbox, preventing anyone from actually getting anything worthwhile out of it—just like “emergence”. I have asked you several times now to lay out exactly what your disagreement is. Unless you and I have wildly varying definitions of the word “exactly”, you have repeatedly failed to do so. You have displayed no desire to actually elucidate your position to the point where it would actually be arguable. I would characterize your replies to my requests so far as a near-perfect example of logical rudeness. My probability estimate of you actually wanting to go somewhere with this conversation is getting lower and lower...
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing. The flippancy this sort of remark exhibits suggests to me that you are more interested in winning than in truth-seeking. If you think I am characterizing your attitude uncharitably, please feel free to correct me on this point.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases. (An exception would be if you were trying to refer directly to the phrase, in which case you would put it in quotation marks, e.g. “free will”.) Now then, what were you saying?
You are supposed to get out of this that you’re asking me to prove a negative and I don’t see a way to do this other than say “I’ve looked and found nothing” (aka introspection). How do you expect me to prove that I do NOT have a deterministic algorithm running my mind?
You are not supposed to argue against this. You are supposed to say “Aha, so this a point where we disagree and there doesn’t appear to be a way to prove it one way or another”.
From my point of view you repeatedly refused to understand what I’ve been saying. You spent all your time telling me, but not listening.
Oh, it does. It asserts that you are treating determinism as a natural and default answer and the burden is upon me to prove it wrong. I disagree.
Why? This is the core of my position. If you think I’m confused by words, tell me how am I confused. It the problem that you don’t understand me? I doubt this.
Are you talking about libertarian free will? The uncaused causer? I would have hoped that LWers wouldn’t believe such absurd things. Perhaps this isn’t the right place for you if you still reject reductionism.
There is such a thing as naturalistic Libertariansm)
LOL. Do elaborate, it’s going to be funny :-)
If you’re just going to provide every banal objection that you can without evidence or explanation in order to block discussion from moving forward, you might as well just stop posting.