I’m going to specify what I mean when I use the word “choice”: the deterministic output of your decision algorithm over your preferences given a certain situation.
Sure, you can define the word “choice” that way. The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Keep in mind that my goal here is not perpetuate disagreement or to scold you for being stupid; it’s to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement. Thus far, your comments have been annoyingly evasive and don’t really help me understand your position better, which has caused me to update toward you not actually having a coherent position on this. Presumably, you think you do have a coherent position, in which case I’d be much gratified if you’d just lay out everything that leads up to your position in one fell swoop rather than forcing myself and others to ask questions repeatedly in hope of clarification. Thank you.
I think it became clear that this debate is pointless the moment proving determinism became a prerequisite for getting anywhere.
I did try a different approach, but that was mostly dodged. I suspect Lumifer wants determinism to be a prerequisite; the freedom to do that slippery debate dance of theirs is so much greater then.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
Introspection.
What’s your basis for arguing that it does exist?
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement.
Well, the differences are pretty clear. In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t. It’s quite an old debate, at least a couple of millennia old and maybe more.
I am not quite sure why do you have difficulties accepting that some people think free will exists. It’s not a that unusual position to hold.
No offense, but this is a textbook example of an answer that sounds pithy but tells me, in a word, nothing. What exactly am I supposed to get out of this? How am I supposed to argue against this? This is a one-word answer that acts as a blackbox, preventing anyone from actually getting anything worthwhile out of it—just like “emergence”. I have asked you several times now to lay out exactly what your disagreement is. Unless you and I have wildly varying definitions of the word “exactly”, you have repeatedly failed to do so. You have displayed no desire to actually elucidate your position to the point where it would actually be arguable. I would characterize your replies to my requests so far as a near-perfect example of logical rudeness. My probability estimate of you actually wanting to go somewhere with this conversation is getting lower and lower...
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing. The flippancy this sort of remark exhibits suggests to me that you are more interested in winning than in truth-seeking. If you think I am characterizing your attitude uncharitably, please feel free to correct me on this point.
In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases. (An exception would be if you were trying to refer directly to the phrase, in which case you would put it in quotation marks, e.g. “free will”.) Now then, what were you saying?
You are supposed to get out of this that you’re asking me to prove a negative and I don’t see a way to do this other than say “I’ve looked and found nothing” (aka introspection). How do you expect me to prove that I do NOT have a deterministic algorithm running my mind?
How am I supposed to argue against this?
You are not supposed to argue against this. You are supposed to say “Aha, so this a point where we disagree and there doesn’t appear to be a way to prove it one way or another”.
you have repeatedly failed to do so.
From my point of view you repeatedly refused to understand what I’ve been saying. You spent all your time telling me, but not listening.
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing.
Oh, it does. It asserts that you are treating determinism as a natural and default answer and the burden is upon me to prove it wrong. I disagree.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases.
Why? This is the core of my position. If you think I’m confused by words, tell me how am I confused. It the problem that you don’t understand me? I doubt this.
Are you talking about libertarian free will? The uncaused causer? I would have hoped that LWers wouldn’t believe such absurd things. Perhaps this isn’t the right place for you if you still reject reductionism.
If you’re just going to provide every banal objection that you can without evidence or explanation in order to block discussion from moving forward, you might as well just stop posting.
Sure, you can define the word “choice” that way. The problem is, I don’t have that. I do not have a decision algorithm over my preferences that produces some deterministic output given a certain situation. Such a thing does not exist.
You may define some agent for whom your definition of “choice” would be valid. But that’s not me, and not any human I’m familiar with.
What is your basis for arguing that it does not exist?
What makes humans so special as to exempted from this?
Keep in mind that my goal here is not perpetuate disagreement or to scold you for being stupid; it’s to resolve whatever differences in reasoning are causing our disagreement. Thus far, your comments have been annoyingly evasive and don’t really help me understand your position better, which has caused me to update toward you not actually having a coherent position on this. Presumably, you think you do have a coherent position, in which case I’d be much gratified if you’d just lay out everything that leads up to your position in one fell swoop rather than forcing myself and others to ask questions repeatedly in hope of clarification. Thank you.
I think it became clear that this debate is pointless the moment proving determinism became a prerequisite for getting anywhere.
I did try a different approach, but that was mostly dodged. I suspect Lumifer wants determinism to be a prerequisite; the freedom to do that slippery debate dance of theirs is so much greater then.
Either way, yeah. I’d let this die.
Introspection.
What’s your basis for arguing that it does exist?
Tsk, tsk. Such naked privileging of an assertion.
Well, the differences are pretty clear. In simple terms, I think humans have free will and you think they don’t. It’s quite an old debate, at least a couple of millennia old and maybe more.
I am not quite sure why do you have difficulties accepting that some people think free will exists. It’s not a that unusual position to hold.
No offense, but this is a textbook example of an answer that sounds pithy but tells me, in a word, nothing. What exactly am I supposed to get out of this? How am I supposed to argue against this? This is a one-word answer that acts as a blackbox, preventing anyone from actually getting anything worthwhile out of it—just like “emergence”. I have asked you several times now to lay out exactly what your disagreement is. Unless you and I have wildly varying definitions of the word “exactly”, you have repeatedly failed to do so. You have displayed no desire to actually elucidate your position to the point where it would actually be arguable. I would characterize your replies to my requests so far as a near-perfect example of logical rudeness. My probability estimate of you actually wanting to go somewhere with this conversation is getting lower and lower...
This is a thinly veiled expression of contempt that again asserts nothing. The flippancy this sort of remark exhibits suggests to me that you are more interested in winning than in truth-seeking. If you think I am characterizing your attitude uncharitably, please feel free to correct me on this point.
Taboo “free will” and try to rephrase your argument without ever using that phrase or any synonymous terms/phrases. (An exception would be if you were trying to refer directly to the phrase, in which case you would put it in quotation marks, e.g. “free will”.) Now then, what were you saying?
You are supposed to get out of this that you’re asking me to prove a negative and I don’t see a way to do this other than say “I’ve looked and found nothing” (aka introspection). How do you expect me to prove that I do NOT have a deterministic algorithm running my mind?
You are not supposed to argue against this. You are supposed to say “Aha, so this a point where we disagree and there doesn’t appear to be a way to prove it one way or another”.
From my point of view you repeatedly refused to understand what I’ve been saying. You spent all your time telling me, but not listening.
Oh, it does. It asserts that you are treating determinism as a natural and default answer and the burden is upon me to prove it wrong. I disagree.
Why? This is the core of my position. If you think I’m confused by words, tell me how am I confused. It the problem that you don’t understand me? I doubt this.
Are you talking about libertarian free will? The uncaused causer? I would have hoped that LWers wouldn’t believe such absurd things. Perhaps this isn’t the right place for you if you still reject reductionism.
There is such a thing as naturalistic Libertariansm)
LOL. Do elaborate, it’s going to be funny :-)
If you’re just going to provide every banal objection that you can without evidence or explanation in order to block discussion from moving forward, you might as well just stop posting.