I suspect all mods would prefer that you and I not directly engage just yet, until there’s structure in place for a facilitated and non-weaponized conversation.
The comment I was responding to was attributing an opinion to me. A norm (even a temporary one) in which you can do that, but I can’t ask for evidence, seems like it ends up allowing whichever of us is more interested in the exercise to snipe at the other unchallenged pretty much indefinitely.
I’m not interested in sniping at you right now, I’m just interested in people parsing the literal comment of my comments (and your posts) and not attributing to me things that I did not in fact say.
A norm (even a temporary one) in which you can do that, but I can’t ask for evidence, seems like it ends up allowing whichever of us is more interested in the exercise to snipe at the other unchallenged pretty much indefinitely.
To be clear on my view (as a mod), it is fine for you to ask for evidence (note that habryka did as well, earlier), and also fine for Duncan to disengage. I suspect that the world where he disengages is better than the one where he responds, primarily because it seems to me like handling things in a de-escalatory way often requires not settling smaller issues until more fundamental ones are addressed.
I do note some unpleasantness here around the question of who gets “the last word” before things are handled a different way, where any call to change methods while a particular person is “up” is like that person attempting to score a point, and I frown on people making attempts to score points if they expect the type of conversation to change shortly.
As a last point, the word “indefinitely” stuck out to me because of the combination with “temporary” earlier, and I note that the party who is more interested in repeatedly doing the ‘disengage until facilitated conversation’ move is also opening themselves up to sniping in this way.
In particular, there is something happening here that I notice myself wanting to narrativize as weaponized disingenuousness (which is probably not Ben’s intention) that’s like …
I’m just interested in people … not attributing to me things that I did not in fact say.
… politely following the rules, over here in this thread, and by example of virtuous action making me seem unreasonable for not wanting to reply …
… whereas over in the other thread, I get the impression that this exact rule is the one he was breaking (e.g. when he explicitly asserted that I want to ghettoize people, when what I said was that we could treat people who found punch bug norms highly costly in a manner analogous to how we treat people with peanut allergies (to the best of my knowledge, there is no ghetto in which we confine people with peanut allergies)).
It reminds me of the phrase peace treaties are not suicide pacts. In fact the norm Ben is pushing for here is one I already follow, the vast majority of the time, except in cases where I see the other person as having already repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t hold themselves to the same standard. I don’t like being made to look bad for having a superseding principle prevent me from proving, in this case, that I am in fact principled in this way, too.
My favorite world would be one in which someone else would reliably make points such as this one, and so I could disengage in this particular likely-to-be-on-tilt case, while also feeling that all the things which “need” to be said will be taken care of.
Duncan’s comment here persuaded me to go search for cases where my use of “ghetto” was ambiguous between quoting Duncan and making a claim about what his proposal implied. I’ve added clarifying notes in the cases that seemed possibly ambiguous to me. If anyone (including but not limited to Duncan) points out cases I’ve missed, and I agree that they’re potentially ambiguous, I’ll be happy to correct those as well.
I still stand by the claim, but it’s important to distinguish that claim from a false impression that Duncan said that he envisioned ghettoes for people who don’t want to play punchbug. He didn’t say that.
One thing that makes Duncan’s criticisms comparatively easy to evaluate here is that he’s grounding things in the object level text with a fairly high degree of precision. I don’t always agree with the criticisms, and sometimes strongly dispute his characterization of what I meant (though that’s at least evidence that something I wrote was unclear), of course.
I suspect all mods would prefer that you and I not directly engage just yet, until there’s structure in place for a facilitated and non-weaponized conversation.
The comment I was responding to was attributing an opinion to me. A norm (even a temporary one) in which you can do that, but I can’t ask for evidence, seems like it ends up allowing whichever of us is more interested in the exercise to snipe at the other unchallenged pretty much indefinitely.
I’m not interested in sniping at you right now, I’m just interested in people parsing the literal comment of my comments (and your posts) and not attributing to me things that I did not in fact say.
To be clear on my view (as a mod), it is fine for you to ask for evidence (note that habryka did as well, earlier), and also fine for Duncan to disengage. I suspect that the world where he disengages is better than the one where he responds, primarily because it seems to me like handling things in a de-escalatory way often requires not settling smaller issues until more fundamental ones are addressed.
I do note some unpleasantness here around the question of who gets “the last word” before things are handled a different way, where any call to change methods while a particular person is “up” is like that person attempting to score a point, and I frown on people making attempts to score points if they expect the type of conversation to change shortly.
As a last point, the word “indefinitely” stuck out to me because of the combination with “temporary” earlier, and I note that the party who is more interested in repeatedly doing the ‘disengage until facilitated conversation’ move is also opening themselves up to sniping in this way.
In particular, there is something happening here that I notice myself wanting to narrativize as weaponized disingenuousness (which is probably not Ben’s intention) that’s like …
… politely following the rules, over here in this thread, and by example of virtuous action making me seem unreasonable for not wanting to reply …
… whereas over in the other thread, I get the impression that this exact rule is the one he was breaking (e.g. when he explicitly asserted that I want to ghettoize people, when what I said was that we could treat people who found punch bug norms highly costly in a manner analogous to how we treat people with peanut allergies (to the best of my knowledge, there is no ghetto in which we confine people with peanut allergies)).
It reminds me of the phrase peace treaties are not suicide pacts. In fact the norm Ben is pushing for here is one I already follow, the vast majority of the time, except in cases where I see the other person as having already repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t hold themselves to the same standard. I don’t like being made to look bad for having a superseding principle prevent me from proving, in this case, that I am in fact principled in this way, too.
My favorite world would be one in which someone else would reliably make points such as this one, and so I could disengage in this particular likely-to-be-on-tilt case, while also feeling that all the things which “need” to be said will be taken care of.
Duncan’s comment here persuaded me to go search for cases where my use of “ghetto” was ambiguous between quoting Duncan and making a claim about what his proposal implied. I’ve added clarifying notes in the cases that seemed possibly ambiguous to me. If anyone (including but not limited to Duncan) points out cases I’ve missed, and I agree that they’re potentially ambiguous, I’ll be happy to correct those as well.
I still stand by the claim, but it’s important to distinguish that claim from a false impression that Duncan said that he envisioned ghettoes for people who don’t want to play punchbug. He didn’t say that.
One thing that makes Duncan’s criticisms comparatively easy to evaluate here is that he’s grounding things in the object level text with a fairly high degree of precision. I don’t always agree with the criticisms, and sometimes strongly dispute his characterization of what I meant (though that’s at least evidence that something I wrote was unclear), of course.
Upvoted, and appreciated on a visceral, emotional level.