In The Open Society and its Enemies (1945), Karl Popper argued that the principle “maximize pleasure” should be replaced by “minimize pain”. He thought “it is not only impossible but very dangerous to attempt to maximize the pleasure or the happiness of the people, since such an attempt must lead to totalitarianism.”[67] [...]
The actual term negative utilitarianism was introduced by R.N.Smart as the title to his 1958 reply to Popper[69] in which he argued that the principle would entail seeking the quickest and least painful method of killing the entirety of humanity.
Suppose that a ruler controls a weapon capable of instantly and painlessly destroying the human race. Now it is empirically certain that there would be some suffering before all those alive on any proposed destruction day were to die in the natural course of events. Consequently the use of the weapon is bound to diminish suffering, and would be the ruler’s duty on NU grounds.[70]
(Pretty cute wind-up on Smart’s part; grab Popper’s argument that to avoid totalitarianism we should minimize pain, not maximize happiness, then turn it around on Popper by counterarguing that his argument obliges the obliteration of humanity whenever feasible!)
I feel like that’s a value that only works because of scope insensitivity. If the extinction of a species is as bad as killing x individuals, then when the size of the population is not near x, one of those things will dominate. But people still think about it as if they’re both significant.
I suspect that the reason we have stronger prohibitions against genocide than against random mass murder of equivalent size is not that genocide is worse, but that it is more common.
It’s easier to form, motivate, and communicate the idea “Kill all the Foos!” (where there are, say, a million identifiable Foos in the country) than it is to form and communicate “Kill a million arbitrary people.”
I suspect that the reason we have stronger prohibitions against genocide than against random mass murder of equivalent size is not that genocide is worse, but that it is more common.
I suspect that’s not actually true. The communist governments killed a lot of people in a (mostly) non-genocidal manner.
The reason we have stronger prohibitions against genocide is the same reason we have stronger prohibitions against the swastika than against the hammer and sickle. Namely, the Nazis were defeated and no longer able to defend their actions in debates while the communists had a lot of time to produce propaganda.
But only one of them got big media attention. Which made it the evil.
Cynically speaking: if you want the world to not pay attention to a genocide, (a) don’t do it in a first-world country, and (b) don’t do it during the war with other side which can make condemning the genocide part of their propaganda, especially if at the end you lose the war.
I am not assigning any rights to memes. I am saying that, as a human, I value some memes. I also value the diversity of the meme ecosystem and the potential for me to go and get acquainted with new memes which will be fresh and potentially interesting to me.
Why some memes and not others—well, that flows out of my value system and personal idiosyncrasies. Some things I find interesting and some I don’t—but how that’s relevant?
A fair number of people believe that it’s a moral issue if people wipe out a species, though I’m not sure if I can formalize an argument for that point of view. Anyone have some thoughts on the subject?
Let’s suppose for a moment that’s what Username meant. If Username deems other beings to be more valuable than humans, then Username, as a human, will have a hard time convincing hirself of pursuing hir own values. So I guess we’re safe.
I’m not going to say what the values are, beyond that I don’t think they would be surprising for a LWer to hold. Also, yes, you’re safe.
But it seems like you started with disbelief in X, and you were given an example of X, and your reaction should be to now assume that there are more examples of X; and it looks like instead, you’re attempting to reason about class X based on features of a particular instance of it.
I thought it was clear that “Username deems other beings to be more valuable than humans” was a particular instance of X, not a description of the entire class.
What values could possibly lead to such a choice?
Hardcore negative utilitarianism?
(Pretty cute wind-up on Smart’s part; grab Popper’s argument that to avoid totalitarianism we should minimize pain, not maximize happiness, then turn it around on Popper by counterarguing that his argument obliges the obliteration of humanity whenever feasible!)
Values that value animals as high or nearly as high as humans.
Not if you account for the typical suffering in nature. Humans remain the animals’ best hope of ever escaping that.
It might not just be about suffering—there’s also the plausible claim that humans lead to less variety in other species.
I feel like that’s a value that only works because of scope insensitivity. If the extinction of a species is as bad as killing x individuals, then when the size of the population is not near x, one of those things will dominate. But people still think about it as if they’re both significant.
Why does that, um, matter?
I can see valuing animal experience, but that’s all about individual animals. Species don’t have moral value, and nature as a whole certainly doesn’t.
Would you say the same about groups of humans? Is genocide worse than killing an equal number of humans but not exterminating any one group?
I suspect that the reason we have stronger prohibitions against genocide than against random mass murder of equivalent size is not that genocide is worse, but that it is more common.
It’s easier to form, motivate, and communicate the idea “Kill all the Foos!” (where there are, say, a million identifiable Foos in the country) than it is to form and communicate “Kill a million arbitrary people.”
I suspect that’s not actually true. The communist governments killed a lot of people in a (mostly) non-genocidal manner.
The reason we have stronger prohibitions against genocide is the same reason we have stronger prohibitions against the swastika than against the hammer and sickle. Namely, the Nazis were defeated and no longer able to defend their actions in debates while the communists had a lot of time to produce propaganda.
Wait, what? Did considering genocide more heinous than regular mass murder only start with the end of WWII?
For that it’s worth, the word genocide may been invented to describe what the Nazis did—anyone have OED access to check for earlier cites?
It existed before, but it’s use really picked up after WWII.
Unfortunately, genocides happen all the time.
But only one of them got big media attention. Which made it the evil.
Cynically speaking: if you want the world to not pay attention to a genocide, (a) don’t do it in a first-world country, and (b) don’t do it during the war with other side which can make condemning the genocide part of their propaganda, especially if at the end you lose the war.
Alternatively, killing a million people at semi-random (through poverty or war) is less conspicuous than going after a defined group.
I don’t see why it should be.
Do particular cultures or, say, languages, have any value to you?
Nailed it. By which I mean, this is the standard argument. I’m surprised nobody brought it up earlier.
Do particular computer systems or, say, programming languages, have any value to you?
Compare your attitude to these two questions, what accounts for the difference?
The fact that I am human.
And..?
And what? You’re a human not a meme, so why are you assigning rights to memes? And why some memes and not others?
I am not assigning any rights to memes. I am saying that, as a human, I value some memes. I also value the diversity of the meme ecosystem and the potential for me to go and get acquainted with new memes which will be fresh and potentially interesting to me.
Why some memes and not others—well, that flows out of my value system and personal idiosyncrasies. Some things I find interesting and some I don’t—but how that’s relevant?
So why should anyone else care about your personal favorite set of favored memes?
A fair number of people believe that it’s a moral issue if people wipe out a species, though I’m not sure if I can formalize an argument for that point of view. Anyone have some thoughts on the subject?
… one way or another.
Given how long they don’t live, I’d be satisfied with just preventing any further generations.
Let’s suppose for a moment that’s what Username meant. If Username deems other beings to be more valuable than humans, then Username, as a human, will have a hard time convincing hirself of pursuing hir own values. So I guess we’re safe.
I’m not going to say what the values are, beyond that I don’t think they would be surprising for a LWer to hold. Also, yes, you’re safe.
But it seems like you started with disbelief in X, and you were given an example of X, and your reaction should be to now assume that there are more examples of X; and it looks like instead, you’re attempting to reason about class X based on features of a particular instance of it.
I thought it was clear that “Username deems other beings to be more valuable than humans” was a particular instance of X, not a description of the entire class.