A bunch of people in the comments section are skeptical that we should care about the consensus of experts on this question. One thing I’m curious to get people’s opinion on: late last year, Rootclaim did a series of debates with Peter Miller on whether COVID was a gain-of-function lab leak or a zoonotic spillover, you can watch the videos here. Two judges were mutually agreed upon, and for each judge that’s convinced one way or the other, the loser (according to that judge) has to pay the winner $50,000. As a result the debates were pretty extensive—they went for a total of 17 hours, and the judges were pretty engaged, including asking written questions between rounds. The judges haven’t released their decisions yet, but they will later this month.
For people who are inclined to disregard this survey: if the judges rule in favour of a zoonotic origin, would that count as relevant evidence in favour of zoonosis? Alternatively, if they rule in favour of a GoF lab origin, would that count as relevant evidence in favour of a lab leak?
Zoonotic will win this debate because Peter outclassed Saar on all fronts, from research/preparation to intelligibly engaging with counterclaims and judge’s questions.
Saar seemed too focused on talking his book and presenting slides with conditional probability calculations. He was not well-versed enough in the debate topics to defend anything when Peter undercut a slide’s assumptions, nor was he able to poke sufficient holes in Peter’s main arguments. Peter relied heavily on case mapping data, and Saar failed to demonstrate the ascertainment bias inherent to that data. He even admitted he did no follow-up research after the initial presentation.
I get the sense Saar either thought lab leak was so self-evident that showing the judges his probability spreadsheet would be a wrap, or he was happy to pony up $100k just to advertise Rootclaim. Maybe both.
For those reasons the Rootclaim verdict doesn’t seem like a proper referendum on the truth of the matter. But I would be more sympathetic to people updating toward zoonotic on the basis of having watched that debate, rather than on the basis of these survey results.
Metaculus currently puts the odds of the side arguing for a natural origin winning the debate at 94%.
Having watched the full debate myself, I think that prediction is accurate- the debate updated my view a lot toward the natural origin hypothesis. While it’s true that a natural coronavirus originating in a city with one of the most important coronavirus research labs would be a large coincidence, Peter- the guy arguing in favor of a natural origin- provided some very convincing evidence that the first likely cases of COVID occurred not just in the market, but in the particular part of the market selling wild animals. He also very convincingly debunked a lot of the arguments put forward by Rootclaim, convincingly demonstrated that the furin cleavage site could have occurred naturally, and poked some large holes in the lab leak theory’s timeline.
When you have some given amount of information about an event, you’re likely to find a corresponding number of unlikely coincidences- and the more data you have, and the you sift through it, the more coincidences you’ll find. The epistemic trap that leads to conspiracy theories is when a subculture data-mines some large amount of data to collect a ton of coincidences suggesting a low-prior explanation, and then rather than discounting the evidence in proportion to the bias of the search process that produced it, they just multiply the unlikelihood- often leading a set of evidence so seemingly unlikely to be a cumulative coincidence that all of the obvious evidence pointing to a high-prior explanation looks like it can only be intentionally fabricated.
One way you can spot an idea that’s fallen into this trap is when each piece of evidence sounds super compelling when described briefly, but fits the story less and less the more detail about it you learn. Based on this debate, I’m inclined to believe that the lab leak idea fits this pattern. Also, Rootclaim’s methodology unfortunately looks to me like a formalization of this trap. They really aren’t doing anything to address bias in which pieces evidence are included in the analysis, and their Bayesian updates are often just probability of a very specific thing occurring randomly, rather than a measure of their surprise at that class of thing happening.
If the natural origin hypothesis is true, I expect the experts to gradually converge on it. They may be biased, but probably aren’t becoming increasingly biased over time- so while some base level of support for a natural origin can be easily explained by perverse incentives, a gradual shift toward consensus is a lot harder to explain. They’re also working with better heuristics about this kind of thing than we are, and are probably exposed to less biased information.
So, I think the Rationalist subculture’s embrace of the lab leak hypothesis is probably a mistake- and more importantly, I think it’s probably an epistemic failure, especially if we don’t update soon on the shift in expert opinion and the results of things like this debate.
So, I think the Rationalist subculture’s embrace of the lab leak hypothesis is probably a mistake- and more importantly, I think it’s probably an epistemic failure, especially if we don’t update soon on the shift in expert opinion and the results of things like this debate.
The main shift in expert opinion I see is that in 2020 those experts said that everyone speaking about the lab leak hypothesis is a conspiracy theorist to now being more open about the possibility of a lab leak. We also saw some experts like those at the Department of Energy and FBI to switch to believing the lab leak is the most likely explanation.
I’m not going to watch 17 hours of debate over this, but tentatively, I’d say yes, one side convincing mutually-agreed-upon expert judges would be evidence, because I think the judges have already paid most of the reputational cost for participating at all.
I think this is evidence, but weak evidence—it updates me more on “Rootclaim isn’t great at debates” than it does on the underlying issue. (Like, how much should William Lane Craig winning his debates update me on theism?)
I think if I started off at 90% confidence of lab leak, Rootclaim losing wouldn’t bring me below 80% confidence of lab leak. Plausibly Peter Miller’s arguments contain defeaters for my specific beliefs, and going thru the debate would bring me much lower, but I don’t yet have that sense from the summaries I’ve seen.
Like, how much should William Lane Craig winning his debates update me on theism?
Partly I think that this debate format was way higher-quality than most formats I’ve seen, including in the domain of theism vs atheism. I also think that the answer is going to depend on whether or not your reasons for atheism are basically the same as Craig’s opponents’ - if they are, then I think it actually should somewhat (at least in a format where the winner is picked correctly), but if they aren’t, then it probably shouldn’t much at all.
A bunch of people in the comments section are skeptical that we should care about the consensus of experts on this question. One thing I’m curious to get people’s opinion on: late last year, Rootclaim did a series of debates with Peter Miller on whether COVID was a gain-of-function lab leak or a zoonotic spillover, you can watch the videos here. Two judges were mutually agreed upon, and for each judge that’s convinced one way or the other, the loser (according to that judge) has to pay the winner $50,000. As a result the debates were pretty extensive—they went for a total of 17 hours, and the judges were pretty engaged, including asking written questions between rounds. The judges haven’t released their decisions yet, but they will later this month.
For people who are inclined to disregard this survey: if the judges rule in favour of a zoonotic origin, would that count as relevant evidence in favour of zoonosis? Alternatively, if they rule in favour of a GoF lab origin, would that count as relevant evidence in favour of a lab leak?
Zoonotic will win this debate because Peter outclassed Saar on all fronts, from research/preparation to intelligibly engaging with counterclaims and judge’s questions.
Saar seemed too focused on talking his book and presenting slides with conditional probability calculations. He was not well-versed enough in the debate topics to defend anything when Peter undercut a slide’s assumptions, nor was he able to poke sufficient holes in Peter’s main arguments. Peter relied heavily on case mapping data, and Saar failed to demonstrate the ascertainment bias inherent to that data. He even admitted he did no follow-up research after the initial presentation.
I get the sense Saar either thought lab leak was so self-evident that showing the judges his probability spreadsheet would be a wrap, or he was happy to pony up $100k just to advertise Rootclaim. Maybe both.
For those reasons the Rootclaim verdict doesn’t seem like a proper referendum on the truth of the matter. But I would be more sympathetic to people updating toward zoonotic on the basis of having watched that debate, rather than on the basis of these survey results.
Metaculus currently puts the odds of the side arguing for a natural origin winning the debate at 94%.
Having watched the full debate myself, I think that prediction is accurate- the debate updated my view a lot toward the natural origin hypothesis. While it’s true that a natural coronavirus originating in a city with one of the most important coronavirus research labs would be a large coincidence, Peter- the guy arguing in favor of a natural origin- provided some very convincing evidence that the first likely cases of COVID occurred not just in the market, but in the particular part of the market selling wild animals. He also very convincingly debunked a lot of the arguments put forward by Rootclaim, convincingly demonstrated that the furin cleavage site could have occurred naturally, and poked some large holes in the lab leak theory’s timeline.
When you have some given amount of information about an event, you’re likely to find a corresponding number of unlikely coincidences- and the more data you have, and the you sift through it, the more coincidences you’ll find. The epistemic trap that leads to conspiracy theories is when a subculture data-mines some large amount of data to collect a ton of coincidences suggesting a low-prior explanation, and then rather than discounting the evidence in proportion to the bias of the search process that produced it, they just multiply the unlikelihood- often leading a set of evidence so seemingly unlikely to be a cumulative coincidence that all of the obvious evidence pointing to a high-prior explanation looks like it can only be intentionally fabricated.
One way you can spot an idea that’s fallen into this trap is when each piece of evidence sounds super compelling when described briefly, but fits the story less and less the more detail about it you learn. Based on this debate, I’m inclined to believe that the lab leak idea fits this pattern. Also, Rootclaim’s methodology unfortunately looks to me like a formalization of this trap. They really aren’t doing anything to address bias in which pieces evidence are included in the analysis, and their Bayesian updates are often just probability of a very specific thing occurring randomly, rather than a measure of their surprise at that class of thing happening.
If the natural origin hypothesis is true, I expect the experts to gradually converge on it. They may be biased, but probably aren’t becoming increasingly biased over time- so while some base level of support for a natural origin can be easily explained by perverse incentives, a gradual shift toward consensus is a lot harder to explain. They’re also working with better heuristics about this kind of thing than we are, and are probably exposed to less biased information.
So, I think the Rationalist subculture’s embrace of the lab leak hypothesis is probably a mistake- and more importantly, I think it’s probably an epistemic failure, especially if we don’t update soon on the shift in expert opinion and the results of things like this debate.
The main shift in expert opinion I see is that in 2020 those experts said that everyone speaking about the lab leak hypothesis is a conspiracy theorist to now being more open about the possibility of a lab leak. We also saw some experts like those at the Department of Energy and FBI to switch to believing the lab leak is the most likely explanation.
I’m not going to watch 17 hours of debate over this, but tentatively, I’d say yes, one side convincing mutually-agreed-upon expert judges would be evidence, because I think the judges have already paid most of the reputational cost for participating at all.
Rootclaim’s page is displaying a 89% chance that covid-19 was a lab escape plus 4.5% that it was a bioweapon
https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COVID-19-SARS-CoV-2
I think this is evidence, but weak evidence—it updates me more on “Rootclaim isn’t great at debates” than it does on the underlying issue. (Like, how much should William Lane Craig winning his debates update me on theism?)
I think if I started off at 90% confidence of lab leak, Rootclaim losing wouldn’t bring me below 80% confidence of lab leak. Plausibly Peter Miller’s arguments contain defeaters for my specific beliefs, and going thru the debate would bring me much lower, but I don’t yet have that sense from the summaries I’ve seen.
Partly I think that this debate format was way higher-quality than most formats I’ve seen, including in the domain of theism vs atheism. I also think that the answer is going to depend on whether or not your reasons for atheism are basically the same as Craig’s opponents’ - if they are, then I think it actually should somewhat (at least in a format where the winner is picked correctly), but if they aren’t, then it probably shouldn’t much at all.