The prefix ‘meta’ is incredibly overused...just saying.
Gray
Karma: 373
You’re right. Interpreting that text as meaning that God wants paperclips to multiply and have dominion over the earth is incredibly self-serving.
This is basically the same thing as the noble lie that Plato discussed in The Republic.
“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” King James Version, Genesis 1:28
Wait, God was talking about paperclips, right?
Personally, I don’t have any problem with religious people. I know there’s a sequence that makes the claim that “atheism = untheism + anti-theism”, but I guess that has never been my interpretation, otherwise I’m an untheist. And I’ll defend religious people from skeptical attacks when they are stupid, or perhaps not skeptical enough.
But...my own opinion, I don’t want rationalism to become Christianity without the mythology, it’s not the mythology that I object to. I object to the servility, and the docility (this was once considered a virtue according to theologians) that Christianity inspires, and has grown as a part of what Christianity has become over centuries. Christianity has a very long history, it’s not wise to be naive to it. I’d suggest reading Nietzsche’s Antichrist to understand some of what is going on.
Djikstra said that computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes, so it shouldn’t be surprising that things like algorithms and data structures has relevance to even mundane reality. I think one way I look at myself is an extremely small and limited computer. On the fly, my brain is slow at performing operations, I have a hard time recalling information, and I do so with limited accuracy. Sometimes I make mistakes while performing operations.
So what are we doing when we try to organize ourselves and make plans but trying to compile a program for these very far from optimal circumstances? Obviously, if I make plenty of mistakes, I need to write in plenty of redundancy; and I have to employ “tricks” in order to achieve meta-cognition at the right times (something that goes beyond the computer analogy, I know).
This involves, as I see it, a further way of looking at yourself. You see yourself as both the machine executing instructions, and the programmer writing those instructions (as well as the compiler, trying to translate the program to machine language). Nietzsche wrote that we have to develop as both commanders and obeyers. I thought this was hogwash, but I’ve learned that there is a lot of truth to that.
I don’t know if this makes sense to anyone else, but one thing that I’ve started that seems to be useful to me is to write down a bunch of notes about the topic before, and while, researching. I think part of this is because I’ve become used to criticism, and I find I can criticize my own thoughts better after I have written them down, or while I’m writing them down. I just use a blank text editor (using org-mode) for this. It is also helpful dumping whatever preconceptions I might have about the subject matter, before I know what to search for. It also helps me clarify when and where the research is more, or less, superficial than my own understanding. Or maybe the research is only tangential to what I was actually looking for.
Just so you know, what you’re advocating for LW are practices that have helped Christianity become a dominant and universalizing religion. Christians want everyone to be a Christian, that’s basic to Christianity. Does, lets call it “rationalism”, want everyone to be a rationalist? I guess that’s a good question, and should be asked.
But lets also be mindful about how Christianity tries to attain a universal status:
“a strong focus on strengthening the family”
It is key that Christianity spreads within the family, and importantly, through generations. “Be fruitful and multiply” belongs here. You shouldn’t have non-Christian members of the family.
“daily family prayer and scripture study”
Not just a strong family, but a strong Christian family. The ties of family should be used for religious purposes.
“sex only inside marriage”
Every natural human desire needs to be mediated with religious meaning and purpose, this makes people lustful for religion.
This is what you call “the basic package”. The basic package has reasons for its existence, but not reasons that rationalists would necessarily agree with.
Hmm? Thomas Bayes was a Presbyterian minister, C. S. Peirce was Catholic and Newton was an unorthodox Christian described as “highly religious”. I’d be more interested in seeing a list of esteemed rationalists who were not religious compared to such a list that were religious. In any case, it is pretty clear that it is possible to hold rationality and religion in your head at the same time. This is basically how most people operate.
Great post. With respect to your final statement, I was wondering if using the results of your research to contribute to Wikipedia isn’t the obvious thing to do? Not speaking to you specifically, lukeprog, but concerning the general topic.
Also, it would be interesting if your post here inspires other people here to also pursue similar research enterprises, which makes me think that this will involve a lot of duplicated effort. This is against efficiency, which makes me wonder if there’s a good place for people to correspond when they are involved in similar research topics. But then I think the answer to this is also Wikipedia.
Adding to the tangent, in my opinion, the concepts of scholastic philosophy are actually incredibly useful for rationality in general. They usually end up being logic terms, and they are employed well outside of their concept even in modern works. A lot of times, for example, when you read an argument and understand there is something wrong with the argument, but have a hard time putting your finger on what is wrong with the argument, there’s typically some scholastic term that will nail it for you. The scholastics were incredibly subtle, and are typically the ones ridiculed when the expression “splitting hairs” comes to fore. But usually that ridicule is made by people who aren’t subtle, and don’t realize that the distinctions are incredibly important.
Thank you.
Not really. Something “can be done” if some possible being, which may not be actual, can perform it. If there’s a 500 pound barbell in front of me, and I can’t lift it, this doesn’t mean that the barbell can’t be lifted, only that I can’t lift it. If you’re omnipotent, then you can lift it.
I guess I’ve always understood omnipotence as being so powerful that no possible being can be more powerful than you are.
Yep, that’s what I’m looking for doing at the moment. There are places around here for around $400/month; but first I’m trying to find a place with a somewhat higher wage.
Thanks for your reply, and I think right now I would be a much better student than I was eight years ago, when I was twenty. Either I’ll go back to college or, if I can’t manage the funding, I’ll try a more disciplined self-study approach. Not giving up.
I guess I never tried this. It would be weird though. How do I message another guy, for instance, without that guy thinking that I’m hitting on him?
Yeah, I’ve checked out meetup.com before. Good idea, by the way, there is an atheist group near here, but their activity seems to have died off, and there only seems to be a few people who are active. But this is a good reminder to look into it further.
Just to give you an idea of what I’m dealing with, however, one of the most active groups local around here seems to be the Tea Party Patriots.
I’m already on OKCupid, and I have been messaging someone on there. But I was more interested in looking for friends or even just intellectually interesting acquaintances. Doesn’t have to be single or of the opposite sex :)
I’m the same age, and in a similar situation to you. I’m not self-reliant yet, but I’m living in my grandfather’s house who recently passed away, so now I’m going through the transition process of living on my own. My problem is trying to find a job and an apartment where I can sustain myself. This seems to be impossible without a college degree.
Upvoted for this. In fact, someone should right a post about this, to stamp out some of the almost naive optimism found elsewhere on the site.