Epistemologist specialized in the difficulties of alignment and how to solve AI X-Risks. Currently at Conjecture.
Blogging at For Methods.
adamShimi
Karma: 6,638
The Grapes of Hardness
I did not particularly intend to do a book review per say, and I don’t claim to be an expert on the topic. So completely fine with tagging this in some way as “non-expert” if you wish.
Not planning to change how I wrote my posts based on this feedback, as I have no interest in following some arbitrary standard of epistemic expertise for a fun little blog post that will be read by 10 people max.
Historiographical Compressions: Renaissance as An Example
Poetic Methods I: Meter as Communication Protocol
I agree that it is in the text. If it wasn’t clear, my message was trying to reverse engineer why I bounced off, which is more about my experience of reading than fully about the text.
I remember reading this post, and really disliking it.
Then today, as I was reflecting on things, I recalled that this existed, and went back to read it. And this time, my reaction was instead “yep, that’s pointing to the mental move that I’ve lost and that I’m now trying to relearn”.
Which is interesting. Because that means a year or two ago, up till now, I was the kind of people who would benefit from this post; yet I couldn’t get the juice out of it. I think a big reason is that while the description of the play/fun mental move is good and clear, the description of the opposite mental move, the one short-circuiting play/fun, felt very caricatural and fake.
My conjecture (though beware mind fallacy), is that it’s because you emphasize “naive deference” to others, which looks obviously wrong to me and obviously not what most people I know who suffer from this tend to do (but might be representative of the people you actually met).
Instead, the mental move that I know intimately is what I call “instrumentalization” (or to be more memey, “tyranny of whys”). It’s a move that doesn’t require another or a social context (though it often includes internalized social judgements from others, aka superego); it only requires caring deeply about a goal (the goal doesn’t actually matter that much), and being invested in it, somewhat neurotically.
Then, the move is that whenever a new, curious, fun, unexpected idea pop up, it hits almost instantly a filter: is this useful to reach the goal?
Obviously this filter removes almost all ideas, but even the ones it lets through don’t survive unharmed: they get trimmed, twisted, simplified to fit the goal, to actually sound like they’re going to help with the goal. And then in my personal case, all ideas start feeling like should, like weight and responsibility and obligations.
Anyway, I do like this post now, and I am trying to relearn how to use the “play” mental move without instrumentalizing everything away.
Typo addressed in the latest patch!
Now addressed in the latest patch!
Now addressed in the latest patch!
Now addressed in the latest patch!
Thanks for the comment!
We have indeed gotten the feedback by multiple people that this part didn’t feel detailed enough (although we got this much more from very technical readers than from non-technical ones), and are working at improving the arguments.
Thanks for the comment!
We’ll correct the typo in the next patch/bug fix.
As for the more direct adversarial tone of the prologue, it is an explicit choice (and is contrasted by the rest of the document). For the moment, we’re waiting to get more feedback on the doc to see if it really turns people off or not.
Yep, I think you’re correct.
Will correct in the next minor update. Thanks!
Thanks for the comment!
We’ll consider this point for future releases, but personally, I would say that this kind of hedging also has a lot of downsides: it makes you sound far more uncertain and defensive than you really want to.
This document tries to be both grounded and to the point, and so we by default don’t want to put ourselves in a defensive position when arguing things that we think make sense and are supported by the evidence.
Thanks for the comment!
We have gotten this feedback by a handful of people, so we want to reread the links and the whole literature about o1 and its evaluation to check whether we’ve indeed gotten the right point, or if we mischaracterized the situation.
We will probably change the phrasing (either to make our criticism clearer or to correct it) in the next minor update.
Good catch, I think we are indeed mixing the sizes here.
As you say, the point still stands, but we will change it in the next minor update to either compare the same size or make the difference in size explicit.
Thanks for the comment!
We want to check the maths, but if you’re indeed correct we will update the numbers (and reasoning) in the next minor version.
One point evoked by other comments, which I’ve realized only after leaving France and living in the UK, is that there is still a massive prestige for engineering. ENS is not technically an engineering school, but it benefits from this prestige by being lumped with them, and by being accessed mainly from the national contests at the end of Prepas.
As always with these kind of cultural phenomena, I didn’t really notice them until I left France for the UK. There is a sense in France (more when I was a student, but still there) that the most prestigious jobs are engineering ones. Going to engineering school is considered one of the top options (with medecine), and it is considered a given that any good student with a knack for maths, physics, science, will go to prepa and engineering school.[1] It’s almost free (and in practice is free if your parents don’t make more than a certain amount), and it is guaranteed to lead to a good future.
This means that the vast majority of mathematical talent studies the equivalent of a undergraduate degree in maths, compressed in the span of 2 years. In addition of giving the standard french engineer much more of a mathematical training, it shows to the potential mathematicians, by default, a lot of what they could do. And if they decide to go to ENS (or Polytechnique, which is the best engineering school but still quite researchy if you want to), this is actually one of the most prestigious options you could take.
Similarly, the prestige of engineering (and science to some extent) impacts what people decide to do after their degrees. I remember that in my good prepa and my good engineering school, the cool ones were those going to build planes and bridges. The ones who went into consulting and finance were pitied and mocked as the failures, not the impressive successes to emulate. Yet what my UK friends tell me is that this is the exact opposite of what happens even in great universities in the UK.
This has become less true, as more private schools open, and the whole elitist system is wormed out by software engineering startups (which generally doesn’t ask you for an engineering degree, as opposed to the older big french companies).