And I think most Christians, by far, would answer that they would rather have faith despite evidence, or that they would rather cling to evidence in their favor and disregard any contrary evidence
I doubt it. That may be how their brains work, but I doubt they would admit that they would cling to beliefs against the evidence. More likely they would insist that such a situation could never happen; that the contrary evidence must be fraudulent in some way.
I actually did ask the questions on a Christian bulletin board this afternoon. The first few responses have been pretty close to my expectations; we will see how things develop.
More likely they would insist that such a situation could never happen; that the contrary evidence must be fraudulent in some way.
That is exactly why I would label them not identifying as “rational”. A rational person follows the evidence, he does not deny it. (Of course there are meta-rules, preponderance of evidence, independence of evidence, etc.)
I actually did ask the questions on a Christian bulletin board this afternoon. The first few responses have been pretty close to my expectations; we will see how things develop.
Upvoted for empirical testing, please followup!
However, I do note that ‘answers to a provocative question on a bulletin board, without the usual safety guards of scientific studies’ won’t be very strong evidence about ‘actual beliefs and/or behavior of people in hypothetical future situations’.
That is exactly why I would label them not identifying as “rational”. A rational person follows the evidence, he does not deny it.
That’s not necessarily true and I can illustrate it with an example from the other side. A devout atheist once told me that even if The Almighty Creator appeared to him personally; performed miracles; etc., he would still remain an atheist on the assumption that he was hallucinating. One can ask if such a person thinks of himself as anti-rational given his pre-announcement that he would reject evidence that disproves his beliefs. Seems to me the answer is pretty clearly “no” since he is still going out of his way to make sure that his beliefs are in line with his assessment of the evidence.
Upvoted for empirical testing, please followup!
However, I do note that ‘answers to a provocative question on a bulletin board, without the usual safety guards of scientific studies’ won’t be very strong evidence about ‘actual beliefs and/or behavior of people in hypothetical future situations’.
Well I agree it’s just an informal survey. But I do think it’s pretty revealing given the question on the table:
Do Christians make a big point of being anti-rational?
Of 4 or 5 responses, I would say that there is 1 where the poster sees himself as irrational.
Anyway, the original claim which sparked this discussion is that everyone thinks he is rational. Perhaps a better way to put it is that it’s pretty unusual for anyone to think his beliefs are irrational.
A devout atheist once told me that even if The Almighty Creator appeared to him personally; performed miracles; etc., he would still remain an atheist on the assumption that he was hallucinating.
And I wouldn’t call that person rational, either. He may want to be rational, and just be wrong about the how.
One can ask if such a person thinks of himself as anti-rational given his pre-announcement that he would reject as “not rational” or “not wanting to be rational” if they disagree.
I think the relevant (psychological and behavioral) difference here is between not being rational, i.e. not always following where rationality might lead you or denying a few specific conclusions, and being anti-rational, which I would describe as seeing rationality as an explicit enemy and therefore being against all things rational by association.
ETA: retracted. Some Christians are merely not rational, but some groups are explicitly anti-rational: they attack rationality, science, and evidence-based reasoning by association, even when they don’t disagree with the actual evidence or conclusions.
The Reddit thread is interesting. 5 isn’t a big sample, and we got examples basically of all points of view. My prediction was that:
most Christians, by far, would answer that they would rather have faith despite evidence, or that they would rather cling to evidence in their favor and disregard any contrary evidence.
By my count, of those Reddit respondents who explicitly answered the question, these match the prediction, given the most probable interpretation of their words: Luc-Pronounced_Luke, tinknal. EvanYork comes close but doesn’t explicitly address the hypothetical.
And these don’t: Mageddon725, rethcir_, Va1idation.
So my prediction of ‘most’ is falsified, but the study is very underpowered :-)
Anyway, the original claim which sparked this discussion is that everyone thinks he is rational. Perhaps a better way to put it is that it’s pretty unusual for anyone to think his beliefs are irrational.
I agree that it’s unusual. My original claim was that many more people don’t accept rationality as a valid or necessary criterion and don’t even try to evaluate their beliefs’ rationality. They don’t see themselves as irrational, but they do see themselves as “not rational”. And some of them further see themselves as anti-rational, and rationality as an enemy philosophy or dialectic.
And I wouldn’t call that person rational, either. He may want to be rational, and just be wrong about the how.
Well he might be rational and he might not be, but pretty clearly he perceives himself to be rational. Or at a minimum, he does not perceive himself to be not rational. Agreed?
Some Christians are merely not rational, but some groups are explicitly anti-rational: they attack rationality, science, and evidence-based reasoning by association, even when they don’t disagree with the actual evidence or conclusions.
Would you mind providing two or three quotes from Christians which manifest this attitude so I can understand and scrutinize your point?
The Reddit thread is interesting. 5 isn’t a big sample, and we got examples basically of all points of view.
That’s true. But I would say that of the 5, there was only one individual who doesn’t perceive himself to be rational. Two pretty clearly perceive themselves to be rational. And two are in a greyer area but pretty clearly would come up with rationalizations to justify their beliefs. Which is irrational but they don’t seem to perceive it as such.
I agree that it’s unusual. My original claim was that many more people don’t accept rationality as a valid or necessary criterion and don’t even try to evaluate their beliefs’ rationality.
Well, I agree that a lot of people might not have a clear opinion about whether their beliefs are rational. But the bottom line is that when push comes to shove, most people seem to believe that their beliefs are a reasonable evidence-based conclusion.
But I am interested to see quotes from these anti-rational Christians you refer to.
After some reflection, and looking for evidence, it seems I was wrong. I felt very certain of what I said, but then I looked for justification and didn’t find it. I’m sorry I led this conversation down a false trail. And thank you for questioning my claims and doing empirical tests.
(To be sure, I found some evidence, but it doesn’t add up to large, numerous, or representative groups of Christians holding these views. Or in fact for these views being associated with Christianity more than other religions or non-religious ‘mystical’ or ‘new age’ groups. Above all, it doesn’t seem these views have religion as their primary motivation. It’s not worth while looking into the examples I found if they’re not representative of larger groups.)
I doubt it. That may be how their brains work, but I doubt they would admit that they would cling to beliefs against the evidence. More likely they would insist that such a situation could never happen; that the contrary evidence must be fraudulent in some way.
I actually did ask the questions on a Christian bulletin board this afternoon. The first few responses have been pretty close to my expectations; we will see how things develop.
That is exactly why I would label them not identifying as “rational”. A rational person follows the evidence, he does not deny it. (Of course there are meta-rules, preponderance of evidence, independence of evidence, etc.)
Upvoted for empirical testing, please followup!
However, I do note that ‘answers to a provocative question on a bulletin board, without the usual safety guards of scientific studies’ won’t be very strong evidence about ‘actual beliefs and/or behavior of people in hypothetical future situations’.
That’s not necessarily true and I can illustrate it with an example from the other side. A devout atheist once told me that even if The Almighty Creator appeared to him personally; performed miracles; etc., he would still remain an atheist on the assumption that he was hallucinating. One can ask if such a person thinks of himself as anti-rational given his pre-announcement that he would reject evidence that disproves his beliefs. Seems to me the answer is pretty clearly “no” since he is still going out of his way to make sure that his beliefs are in line with his assessment of the evidence.
Well I agree it’s just an informal survey. But I do think it’s pretty revealing given the question on the table:
Do Christians make a big point of being anti-rational?
Here’s the thread:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1zd9t1/does_the_evidence_support_your_beliefs/
Of 4 or 5 responses, I would say that there is 1 where the poster sees himself as irrational.
Anyway, the original claim which sparked this discussion is that everyone thinks he is rational. Perhaps a better way to put it is that it’s pretty unusual for anyone to think his beliefs are irrational.
And I wouldn’t call that person rational, either. He may want to be rational, and just be wrong about the how.
I think the relevant (psychological and behavioral) difference here is between not being rational, i.e. not always following where rationality might lead you or denying a few specific conclusions, and being anti-rational, which I would describe as seeing rationality as an explicit enemy and therefore being against all things rational by association.
ETA: retracted. Some Christians are merely not rational, but some groups are explicitly anti-rational: they attack rationality, science, and evidence-based reasoning by association, even when they don’t disagree with the actual evidence or conclusions.
The Reddit thread is interesting. 5 isn’t a big sample, and we got examples basically of all points of view. My prediction was that:
By my count, of those Reddit respondents who explicitly answered the question, these match the prediction, given the most probable interpretation of their words: Luc-Pronounced_Luke, tinknal. EvanYork comes close but doesn’t explicitly address the hypothetical.
And these don’t: Mageddon725, rethcir_, Va1idation.
So my prediction of ‘most’ is falsified, but the study is very underpowered :-)
I agree that it’s unusual. My original claim was that many more people don’t accept rationality as a valid or necessary criterion and don’t even try to evaluate their beliefs’ rationality. They don’t see themselves as irrational, but they do see themselves as “not rational”. And some of them further see themselves as anti-rational, and rationality as an enemy philosophy or dialectic.
Well he might be rational and he might not be, but pretty clearly he perceives himself to be rational. Or at a minimum, he does not perceive himself to be not rational. Agreed?
Would you mind providing two or three quotes from Christians which manifest this attitude so I can understand and scrutinize your point?
That’s true. But I would say that of the 5, there was only one individual who doesn’t perceive himself to be rational. Two pretty clearly perceive themselves to be rational. And two are in a greyer area but pretty clearly would come up with rationalizations to justify their beliefs. Which is irrational but they don’t seem to perceive it as such.
Well, I agree that a lot of people might not have a clear opinion about whether their beliefs are rational. But the bottom line is that when push comes to shove, most people seem to believe that their beliefs are a reasonable evidence-based conclusion.
But I am interested to see quotes from these anti-rational Christians you refer to.
After some reflection, and looking for evidence, it seems I was wrong. I felt very certain of what I said, but then I looked for justification and didn’t find it. I’m sorry I led this conversation down a false trail. And thank you for questioning my claims and doing empirical tests.
(To be sure, I found some evidence, but it doesn’t add up to large, numerous, or representative groups of Christians holding these views. Or in fact for these views being associated with Christianity more than other religions or non-religious ‘mystical’ or ‘new age’ groups. Above all, it doesn’t seem these views have religion as their primary motivation. It’s not worth while looking into the examples I found if they’re not representative of larger groups.)