there seem to be a lot of people in the LessWrong community who imagine themselves to be (...) paragons of rationality who other people should accept as such.
Uhm. My first reaction is to ask “who specifically?”, because I don’t have this impression. (At least I think most people here aren’t like this, and if a few happen to be, I probably did not notice the relevant comments.) On the other hand, if I imagine myself at your place, even if I had specific people in mind, I probably wouldn’t want to name them, to avoid making it a personal accusation instead of observation of trends. Now I don’t know what do to.
Perhaps could someone else give me a few examples of comments (preferably by different people) where LW members imagine themselves paragons of rationality and ask other people to accept them as such? (If I happen to be such an example myself, that information would be even more valuable to me. Feel free to send me a private message if you hesitate to write it publicly, but I don’t mind if you do. Crocker’s rules, Litany of Tarski, etc.)
I’ve encountered people talking as if it’s ridiculous to suggest they might sometimes respond badly to being told the truth about certain subjects.
I do relate to this one, even if I don’t know if I have expressed this sentinent on LW. I believe I am able to listen to opinions that are unpleasant or that I disagree with, without freaking out, much more than an average person, although not literally always. It’s stronger in real life than online, because in real life I take time to think, while on internet I am more in “respond and move on (there are so many other pages to read)” mode. Some other people have told me they noticed this about me, so it’s not just my own imagination.
Okay, you probably didn’t mean me with this one… I just wanted to say I don’t see this as a bad thing per se, assuming the person is telling the truth. And I also believe that LW has a higher ratio of people for whom this is true, compared with average population, although not everyone here is like that.
Yet the readiness of members of the LessWrong community to disagree with and criticize each other suggests we don’t actually think all that highly of each other’s rationality.
I don’t consider everyone here rational, and it’s likely some people don’t consider me rational. But there are also other reasons for frequent disagreement.
Aspiring rationalists are sometimes encouraged to make bets, because bet is a tax on bullshit, and paying a lot of tax may show you your irrationality and encourage you to get rid of it. Even if it’s not about money; we need to calibrate ourselves. Some of us use the prediction book, CFAR has developed the calibration game.
Analogically, if I have an opinion, I say it in a comment, because that’s similar to making a bet. If I am wrong, I will likely get a feedback, which is an opportunity to learn. I trust other people here intellectually to disagree with me only if they have a good reason to disagree, and I also trust them emotionally that if I happen to write something stupid, they will just correct me and move on (instead of e.g. reminding me of my mistake for the rest of my life). Because of this, I post here my opinions more often, and voice them more strongly if I feel it’s deserved. Thus, more opportunity for disagreement.
On a different website I might keep quiet instead or speak very diplomatically, which would give less opportunity to disagreement; but it wouldn’t mean I have higher estimate on that community’s rationality; quite the opposite. If disagreement is disrespect, then tiptoeing around the mere possibility of disagreement means considering the other person insane. Which is how I learned to behave outside of LW; and I am still not near the level of disdain that a Carnegie-like behavior would require.
I’ve heard people cite this as a reason to be reluctant to post/comment (again showing they know intuitively that disagreement is disrespect).
We probably should have some “easy mode” for the beginners. But we shouldn’t turn the whole website into the “easy mode”. Well, this probably deserves a separate discussion.
Yet I’ve heard people suggest that you must never be dismissive of things said by smart people, or that the purportedly high IQ of the LessWrong community means people here don’t make bad arguments.
On a few occassions I made fun of Mensa on LW, and I don’t remember anyone contradicting me, so I thought we have a consensus that high IQ does not imply high rationality (although some level may be necessary). Stanovich wrote a book about it, and Kaj Sotala reviewed it here.
You make a few very good points in the article. Confusing intelligence with rationality is bad; selective charity is unfair; asking someone to treat me as a perfect rationalist is silly; it’s good to apply healthy cynicism also to your own group; and we should put more emphasis on being aspiring rationalists. It just seems to me that you perceive the LW community as less rational than I do. Maybe we just have different people in mind when we think about the community. (By the way, I am curious if there is a correlation between people who complain that you don’t believe in their sanity, and people who are reluctant to comment on LW because of the criticism.)
Uhm. My first reaction is to ask “who specifically?”, because I don’t have this impression. (At least I think most people here aren’t like this, and if a few happen to be, I probably did not notice the relevant comments.) On the other hand, if I imagine myself at your place, even if I had specific people in mind, I probably wouldn’t want to name them, to avoid making it a personal accusation instead of observation of trends. Now I don’t know what do to.
Perhaps could someone else give me a few examples of comments (preferably by different people) where LW members imagine themselves paragons of rationality and ask other people to accept them as such? (If I happen to be such an example myself, that information would be even more valuable to me. Feel free to send me a private message if you hesitate to write it publicly, but I don’t mind if you do. Crocker’s rules, Litany of Tarski, etc.)
I do relate to this one, even if I don’t know if I have expressed this sentinent on LW. I believe I am able to listen to opinions that are unpleasant or that I disagree with, without freaking out, much more than an average person, although not literally always. It’s stronger in real life than online, because in real life I take time to think, while on internet I am more in “respond and move on (there are so many other pages to read)” mode. Some other people have told me they noticed this about me, so it’s not just my own imagination.
Okay, you probably didn’t mean me with this one… I just wanted to say I don’t see this as a bad thing per se, assuming the person is telling the truth. And I also believe that LW has a higher ratio of people for whom this is true, compared with average population, although not everyone here is like that.
I don’t consider everyone here rational, and it’s likely some people don’t consider me rational. But there are also other reasons for frequent disagreement.
Aspiring rationalists are sometimes encouraged to make bets, because bet is a tax on bullshit, and paying a lot of tax may show you your irrationality and encourage you to get rid of it. Even if it’s not about money; we need to calibrate ourselves. Some of us use the prediction book, CFAR has developed the calibration game.
Analogically, if I have an opinion, I say it in a comment, because that’s similar to making a bet. If I am wrong, I will likely get a feedback, which is an opportunity to learn. I trust other people here intellectually to disagree with me only if they have a good reason to disagree, and I also trust them emotionally that if I happen to write something stupid, they will just correct me and move on (instead of e.g. reminding me of my mistake for the rest of my life). Because of this, I post here my opinions more often, and voice them more strongly if I feel it’s deserved. Thus, more opportunity for disagreement.
On a different website I might keep quiet instead or speak very diplomatically, which would give less opportunity to disagreement; but it wouldn’t mean I have higher estimate on that community’s rationality; quite the opposite. If disagreement is disrespect, then tiptoeing around the mere possibility of disagreement means considering the other person insane. Which is how I learned to behave outside of LW; and I am still not near the level of disdain that a Carnegie-like behavior would require.
We probably should have some “easy mode” for the beginners. But we shouldn’t turn the whole website into the “easy mode”. Well, this probably deserves a separate discussion.
On a few occassions I made fun of Mensa on LW, and I don’t remember anyone contradicting me, so I thought we have a consensus that high IQ does not imply high rationality (although some level may be necessary). Stanovich wrote a book about it, and Kaj Sotala reviewed it here.
You make a few very good points in the article. Confusing intelligence with rationality is bad; selective charity is unfair; asking someone to treat me as a perfect rationalist is silly; it’s good to apply healthy cynicism also to your own group; and we should put more emphasis on being aspiring rationalists. It just seems to me that you perceive the LW community as less rational than I do. Maybe we just have different people in mind when we think about the community. (By the way, I am curious if there is a correlation between people who complain that you don’t believe in their sanity, and people who are reluctant to comment on LW because of the criticism.)