Doesn’t change my view that you can’t “meaningfully” say what you have no grounds for knowing. In my view of the world, which it that it isn’t ruled by dream logic, and the past is fixed, whether we can know certain things about it or not, Abraham Lincoln either did or did not masturbate on his 15th birthday. But no one can “meaningfully” (in the sense in which I’ve used the word) say that he did or didn’t.
Anyway, going back a bit, there are problems with “elegance”, like a lack of agreement on what it means, unless you say “elegance as defined by …” (assuming you can come up with a coherent definition)” Then you could say there is a set of all elegant mathematical proofs whether anyone has ever thought them or not. (Maybe not really, because Gödel, I believe shows that no matter how hard we try, we will never have a “well defined” (let along the one and only correct) specification of the set of all mathematical proofs).
Abraham Lincoln either did or did not masturbate on his 15th birthday. But no one can “meaningfully” (in the sense in which I’ve used the word) say that he did or didn’t.
OK, that’s not the local definition of “meaningful”. That explains the confusion.
there are problems with “elegance”, like a lack of agreement on what it means, unless you say “elegance as defined by …”
Well, yeah. But we can look at proofs and sort ’em into “elegant” and “inelegant”, I guess, so presumably the are criteria buried somewhere in our circuitry. Doubtless inordinately complex ones.
Conceivably someone could have observed Lincoln’s activities (or lack thereof) at the relevant time and written down their observations. Such a record might still exist, but not be known to historians, let alone the general public; and yet anyone who had read it would be able to meaningfully say.
It’s conceivable the way it’s conceivable that the English upper class are giant lizards in disguise. If you’ve read much 19c history and sources, you should know that nobody said anything about anybody masturbating or not, and Lincoln at that time probably lived a mile from his nearest neighbour.
Lincoln is an interesting example because if you read enough biographies of him, it becomes funny just how much mileage people can get out of the most trivial and dubious piece of evidence about his early life.
Anyway, the past is full of things that either happened or didn’t—at least I don’t believe they’re like Schrodinger’s cat, but which we’ll never know if they did or not.
It’s conceivable the way it’s conceivable that the English upper class are giant lizards in disguise.
Yup. That’s generally considered a form of conceivable, at least around here.
(You might want to try lurking around, reading sequences and interesting comments, at least until you absorb the local jargon, assumptions, and so on. Learning from experience probably works, but it has a high cost in karma, or even regular reputation if you’re lucky.)
Yeah. Karma is good. I’ve never put a bumper sticker on my car but if I did it would probably say either
My Karma Ran Over My Dogma
or
Question Bumper-sticker Slogans
I have a mental block for reading the instruction manual, and a strong prejudice towards experimentalism, so while over time I’m sure to soak up a lot of the threads, you’ll probably see me going on my bumptious way.
P.S. As an online book dealer, I’ve spent most of the last 11 years working alone and losing my social skills. While I’m sure to make mistakes, it’s exhilarating to be talking on a forum where the responses are above the level of “poopy-head”.
Doesn’t change my view that you can’t “meaningfully” say what you have no grounds for knowing. In my view of the world, which it that it isn’t ruled by dream logic, and the past is fixed, whether we can know certain things about it or not, Abraham Lincoln either did or did not masturbate on his 15th birthday. But no one can “meaningfully” (in the sense in which I’ve used the word) say that he did or didn’t.
Anyway, going back a bit, there are problems with “elegance”, like a lack of agreement on what it means, unless you say “elegance as defined by …” (assuming you can come up with a coherent definition)” Then you could say there is a set of all elegant mathematical proofs whether anyone has ever thought them or not. (Maybe not really, because Gödel, I believe shows that no matter how hard we try, we will never have a “well defined” (let along the one and only correct) specification of the set of all mathematical proofs).
OK, that’s not the local definition of “meaningful”. That explains the confusion.
Well, yeah. But we can look at proofs and sort ’em into “elegant” and “inelegant”, I guess, so presumably the are criteria buried somewhere in our circuitry. Doubtless inordinately complex ones.
Conceivably someone could have observed Lincoln’s activities (or lack thereof) at the relevant time and written down their observations. Such a record might still exist, but not be known to historians, let alone the general public; and yet anyone who had read it would be able to meaningfully say.
It’s conceivable the way it’s conceivable that the English upper class are giant lizards in disguise. If you’ve read much 19c history and sources, you should know that nobody said anything about anybody masturbating or not, and Lincoln at that time probably lived a mile from his nearest neighbour.
Lincoln is an interesting example because if you read enough biographies of him, it becomes funny just how much mileage people can get out of the most trivial and dubious piece of evidence about his early life.
Anyway, the past is full of things that either happened or didn’t—at least I don’t believe they’re like Schrodinger’s cat, but which we’ll never know if they did or not.
Yup. That’s generally considered a form of conceivable, at least around here.
(You might want to try lurking around, reading sequences and interesting comments, at least until you absorb the local jargon, assumptions, and so on. Learning from experience probably works, but it has a high cost in karma, or even regular reputation if you’re lucky.)
Yeah. Karma is good. I’ve never put a bumper sticker on my car but if I did it would probably say either
My Karma Ran Over My Dogma
or
Question Bumper-sticker Slogans
I have a mental block for reading the instruction manual, and a strong prejudice towards experimentalism, so while over time I’m sure to soak up a lot of the threads, you’ll probably see me going on my bumptious way.
Thanks
P.S. As an online book dealer, I’ve spent most of the last 11 years working alone and losing my social skills. While I’m sure to make mistakes, it’s exhilarating to be talking on a forum where the responses are above the level of “poopy-head”.