And I said, in a move designed to be somewhat socially punishing: “I don’t really trust the conversation to go anywhere useful.” And then I took out my laptop and mostly stopped paying attention.
This ‘social punishment’ move seems problematic, in a way that isn’t highlighted in the rest of the post.
One issue: What are you punishing them for? It seems like the punishment is intended to enforce the norm that you wanted the group to have, which is a different kind of move than enforcing a norm that is already established. Enforcing existing norms is generally prosocial, but it’s more problematic if each person is trying to enforce the norms that he personally wishes the group to have.
A second thing worth highlighting is that this attempt at norm enforcement looked a lot like a norm violation (of norms against disengaging from a meeting). Sometimes “punishing others for violating norms” is a special case where it’s appropriate to do something which would otherwise be a norm violation, but that’s often a costly/risky way of doing things (especially when the norm you’re enforcing isn’t clearly established and so your actions are less legible).
Enforcing existing norms is generally prosocial, but it’s more problematic if each person is trying to enforce the norms that he personally wishes the group to have.
Indeed. This is a major failure mode, important enough to deserve it’s own post (or perhaps woven into some other posts – there’s a lot I could say on this topic and I’m not sure how to crystallize it all). I try to catch myself when I do this behavior and am annoyed when I see others doing it and it was a major motivator for this post.
One problem is that people often have very different expectations about what norms had already been established, that people had implicitly bought into (by working at a given company, but being a ‘rationalist’ or whatnot).
This ‘social punishment’ move seems problematic, in a way that isn’t highlighted in the rest of the post.
One issue: What are you punishing them for? It seems like the punishment is intended to enforce the norm that you wanted the group to have, which is a different kind of move than enforcing a norm that is already established. Enforcing existing norms is generally prosocial, but it’s more problematic if each person is trying to enforce the norms that he personally wishes the group to have.
A second thing worth highlighting is that this attempt at norm enforcement looked a lot like a norm violation (of norms against disengaging from a meeting). Sometimes “punishing others for violating norms” is a special case where it’s appropriate to do something which would otherwise be a norm violation, but that’s often a costly/risky way of doing things (especially when the norm you’re enforcing isn’t clearly established and so your actions are less legible).
Indeed. This is a major failure mode, important enough to deserve it’s own post (or perhaps woven into some other posts – there’s a lot I could say on this topic and I’m not sure how to crystallize it all). I try to catch myself when I do this behavior and am annoyed when I see others doing it and it was a major motivator for this post.
One problem is that people often have very different expectations about what norms had already been established, that people had implicitly bought into (by working at a given company, but being a ‘rationalist’ or whatnot).