in-home maid/handyman/nanny jobs are exactly the obedient, dutiful, vigilant, lower-IQ, blue-collar, conscientious-type people.
Your stereotypes are both inaccurate and harmful. All the handymen I know are extremely intelligent. Electrical systems, plumbing systems, etc. are both complex and require reasoning to work with. A lot of fix-it stuff is a mix of puzzles, and figuring out how to do things on the fly.
I myself am a nanny (if you do a SAT to IQ conversion, my IQ is 144, which I am only saying because that seems to be of particular importance to you). Nannies tend to be of about average intelligence, and if I were to think of the most common trait it’s that they were pioneering enough to either immigrate or leave their entire family behind to come to America to work.
Your stereotypes are both inaccurate and harmful. All the handymen I know are extremely intelligent.
Let’s decide what the truth is before we go calling it harmful. First, “dutiful”/”vigilant”, etc. are just synonyms with “conscientious”. That’s by definition, not stereotype. As for the “low-IQ” part, I only claimed that
studies found an inverse correlation between conscientiousness and the general intelligence factor, and
you want conscientious people for in-home and human-service jobs. (regardless of IQ)
It’s only an inverse correlation, and nowhere near a perfect −1. (Maybe −0.25) As I mentioned, there exist some who have both low-IQ and are not conscientious (who don’t make good employees), I thought that also implied the existence of the reverse.
If you want to claim we’re being inaccurate, we need data, not anecdotes. Stereotypes often have some statistical truth.
The chart michaelkeenan linked to is instructive. There is considerable overlap in these curves. Average-IQ (~100) people can get most jobs on that chart, but would find it difficult to get the high-IQ jobs near the bottom, and probably can’t get a medical doctor job at all. An IQ-85 person could realistically get an electrician job, but not an electrical engineering job.
If we believe the chart, then we should also expect a significant number of above-average-IQ people working blue collar jobs. I do not dispute this. You claim to be an example of that. But they can retrain and even get merit scholarships. I pointed out that this process would still be disruptive, since the training process could take years.
But they (and you) are part of the “cognitive elite” that tristanm isn’t worried about becoming perpetually unemployed. It’s the other side, precisely the low-IQ people who can’t retrain for high-IQ jobs that were cause for concern. I pointed out they may have other advantages (conscientiousness) that could mitigate that somewhat, and furthermore, what is easy for humans is not the same as what is easy for robots anyway.
my IQ is 144, which I am only saying because that seems to be of particular importance to you
Who, me? Why are you so surprised I’m talking about it when this is the direct topic of the thread? The g factor is real, and significant to life outcomes. This is settled science.
This is google-able—I found this chart. It’s probably imperfect, but from a brief glance at the source I’d trust it more than anecdote or my own experience.
Even in your chart, the top 25% of janitors (the lowest IQ occupation) are smarter than the bottom 25% of college professors (the second highest IQ occupation). IQ ranges within an occupation are MUCH bigger than IQ ranges between occupations.
All the handymen I know are extremely intelligent.
That is not true for me. But I am curious—if you think that this type of service/blue-collar jobs are occupied by highly intelligent people, where are the stupids? Half of the population is below the median intelligence, where are they? Where do they work? What kind of jobs do they take?
Nannies tend to be of about average intelligence
Again, not according to my observations (though I admit we may have different baselines). I agree that immigrant nannies—like other immigrants—have to demonstrate a certain level of capability and independence to get to where they are. But I don’t think this level is very high.
On the other hand, for some intelligent people becoming a nanny in the US is the easiest way to improve their condition. So there is a lot of variance—some nannies are very bright and some are not. Just like most people, really :-)
But low-IQ people won’t do well in a large corporation. They are not that good at covering their asses and are not very valuable as minions. A large corp will probably have difficulties getting rid of them (for a variety of reasons), but it’s not their natural habitat.
Good point. I imagine many are in prison, homeless, or perpetually unemployed on welfare or supported by family, but no way that accounts for half of the working-age population at present. The rest must be working, and not as rocket surgeons.
Your stereotypes are both inaccurate and harmful. All the handymen I know are extremely intelligent. Electrical systems, plumbing systems, etc. are both complex and require reasoning to work with. A lot of fix-it stuff is a mix of puzzles, and figuring out how to do things on the fly.
I myself am a nanny (if you do a SAT to IQ conversion, my IQ is 144, which I am only saying because that seems to be of particular importance to you). Nannies tend to be of about average intelligence, and if I were to think of the most common trait it’s that they were pioneering enough to either immigrate or leave their entire family behind to come to America to work.
Let’s decide what the truth is before we go calling it harmful. First, “dutiful”/”vigilant”, etc. are just synonyms with “conscientious”. That’s by definition, not stereotype. As for the “low-IQ” part, I only claimed that
studies found an inverse correlation between conscientiousness and the general intelligence factor, and
you want conscientious people for in-home and human-service jobs. (regardless of IQ)
It’s only an inverse correlation, and nowhere near a perfect −1. (Maybe −0.25) As I mentioned, there exist some who have both low-IQ and are not conscientious (who don’t make good employees), I thought that also implied the existence of the reverse.
If you want to claim we’re being inaccurate, we need data, not anecdotes. Stereotypes often have some statistical truth.
The chart michaelkeenan linked to is instructive. There is considerable overlap in these curves. Average-IQ (~100) people can get most jobs on that chart, but would find it difficult to get the high-IQ jobs near the bottom, and probably can’t get a medical doctor job at all. An IQ-85 person could realistically get an electrician job, but not an electrical engineering job.
If we believe the chart, then we should also expect a significant number of above-average-IQ people working blue collar jobs. I do not dispute this. You claim to be an example of that. But they can retrain and even get merit scholarships. I pointed out that this process would still be disruptive, since the training process could take years.
But they (and you) are part of the “cognitive elite” that tristanm isn’t worried about becoming perpetually unemployed. It’s the other side, precisely the low-IQ people who can’t retrain for high-IQ jobs that were cause for concern. I pointed out they may have other advantages (conscientiousness) that could mitigate that somewhat, and furthermore, what is easy for humans is not the same as what is easy for robots anyway.
Who, me? Why are you so surprised I’m talking about it when this is the direct topic of the thread? The g factor is real, and significant to life outcomes. This is settled science.
This is google-able—I found this chart. It’s probably imperfect, but from a brief glance at the source I’d trust it more than anecdote or my own experience.
Even in your chart, the top 25% of janitors (the lowest IQ occupation) are smarter than the bottom 25% of college professors (the second highest IQ occupation). IQ ranges within an occupation are MUCH bigger than IQ ranges between occupations.
That is not true for me. But I am curious—if you think that this type of service/blue-collar jobs are occupied by highly intelligent people, where are the stupids? Half of the population is below the median intelligence, where are they? Where do they work? What kind of jobs do they take?
Again, not according to my observations (though I admit we may have different baselines). I agree that immigrant nannies—like other immigrants—have to demonstrate a certain level of capability and independence to get to where they are. But I don’t think this level is very high.
On the other hand, for some intelligent people becoming a nanny in the US is the easiest way to improve their condition. So there is a lot of variance—some nannies are very bright and some are not. Just like most people, really :-)
Clearly you’ve never worked at a big corporation.
Your username is delicious :-)
But low-IQ people won’t do well in a large corporation. They are not that good at covering their asses and are not very valuable as minions. A large corp will probably have difficulties getting rid of them (for a variety of reasons), but it’s not their natural habitat.
Good point. I imagine many are in prison, homeless, or perpetually unemployed on welfare or supported by family, but no way that accounts for half of the working-age population at present. The rest must be working, and not as rocket surgeons.