Hmm I’m not sure what to make of your probability tree yet .. . but in general I don’t assign such high probabilities to any of these models/propositions. Also, I’m not sure what a type III civilization is supposed to translate to in the cold dark models that are temperature constrained rather than energy constrained. I guess you are using that to indicate how much of the galaxy’s usable computronium mass is colonized?
It is probably unlikely that even a fully colonized galaxy would have a very high computronium ratio: most of the mass is probably low value and not worth bothering with.
That’s why I like your approach so much; before reading it I hadn’t really given much thought to civilizations limited primarily by things like Laudauer’s limit rather than energy or raw materials
Thanks. I like your analogies with food and other early resources. Energy is so fundamental that it will probably always constrain many actions (construction still requires energy, for example), but it isn’t the only constraint, and not necessarily the key constraint for computation.
I would still think that manufacturing and ejecting ColdTech is likely to be extremely mass and energy intensive.
Yes—agreed. (I am now realizing ColdTech really needs a better name)
If the civilization expands exponentially limited only by their available resources, the observable effects would look much like other forms of advanced civilizations.
No, the observable effects vary considerably based on the assumed technology. Let’s compare three models: stellavore, BHE (black hole entity) transcension, and CD (cold dark) arcilects.
The stellavore model predicts that civs will create dyson spheres, which should be observable during the long construction period and may be observable afterwards. John Smart’s transcension model predicts black holes entities arising in or near stellar systems (although we could combine that with ejection I suppose). The CD arcilect model predicts that civs will cool down some of the planemos in their systems, possibly eject some of those planemos, and then also colonize any suitable nomads.
Each theory predicts a different set of observables. The stellavore model doesn’t appear to match our observations all that well. The other two seem to match, although also are just harder to detect, but there are some key things we could look for.
For my CD arcilect model, we have already have some evidence for a large amount of nomads. Perhaps there is a way to distinguish between artificial and natural ejections. Perhaps the natural pattern is ejections tend to occur early in system formation, whereas artificial ejections occur much later. Perhaps we could even get lucky and detect an unusually cold planemo with microlensing. Better modelling of the dark matter halos may reveal a match between ejection models for at least a baryonic component of the halo.
For the CDA model stars become somewhat wasteful, which suggests that civs may favour artificial supernovas if such a thing is practical. At the moment I don’t see how one could get the energy/mass to do such a thing.
Those are just some quick ideas, I haven’t really looked into it all that much.
Are you arguing that they would stay quite small for the sake of stealth? If so, wouldn’t it still make sense to spread out as much as possible, via as many independent production sites as possible?
No, I agree that civilizations will tend to expand and colonize, and yes stealth considerations shouldn’t prevent this.
I don’t see any reason not to just keep sending material out in different directions. . .
Thinking about it a little more, I agree. And yes when I mention not being energy constrained, that was in reference only to computation, not construction. I assume efficient construction is typically in place, using solar or fusion or whatever.
It seems like you could just have the ejected raw materials/ColdTech perform a course correction and series of gravity assists based on the output from a random number generator, once they were out of observational distance from the origin system. This would ensure that no hostile forces could determine their location by finding the production facility still active.
Yes, this seems to be on the right track. However, the orbits of planetary bodies are very predictable and gravity assists are reversible operations (I think), which seems to imply that the remaining objects in the system will contain history sufficient for predicting the ejection trajectory (for a rival superintelligence). You can erase the history only by creating heat … so maybe you end up sending some objects into the sun? :) Yes actually that seems pretty doable.
Hmm I’m not sure what to make of your probability tree yet .. . but in general I don’t assign such high probabilities to any of these models/propositions. Also, I’m not sure what a type III civilization is supposed to translate to in the cold dark models that are temperature constrained rather than energy constrained. I guess you are using that to indicate how much of the galaxy’s usable computronium mass is colonized?
It is probably unlikely that even a fully colonized galaxy would have a very high computronium ratio: most of the mass is probably low value and not worth bothering with.
Thanks. I like your analogies with food and other early resources. Energy is so fundamental that it will probably always constrain many actions (construction still requires energy, for example), but it isn’t the only constraint, and not necessarily the key constraint for computation.
Yes—agreed. (I am now realizing ColdTech really needs a better name)
No, the observable effects vary considerably based on the assumed technology. Let’s compare three models: stellavore, BHE (black hole entity) transcension, and CD (cold dark) arcilects.
The stellavore model predicts that civs will create dyson spheres, which should be observable during the long construction period and may be observable afterwards. John Smart’s transcension model predicts black holes entities arising in or near stellar systems (although we could combine that with ejection I suppose). The CD arcilect model predicts that civs will cool down some of the planemos in their systems, possibly eject some of those planemos, and then also colonize any suitable nomads.
Each theory predicts a different set of observables. The stellavore model doesn’t appear to match our observations all that well. The other two seem to match, although also are just harder to detect, but there are some key things we could look for.
For my CD arcilect model, we have already have some evidence for a large amount of nomads. Perhaps there is a way to distinguish between artificial and natural ejections. Perhaps the natural pattern is ejections tend to occur early in system formation, whereas artificial ejections occur much later. Perhaps we could even get lucky and detect an unusually cold planemo with microlensing. Better modelling of the dark matter halos may reveal a match between ejection models for at least a baryonic component of the halo.
For the CDA model stars become somewhat wasteful, which suggests that civs may favour artificial supernovas if such a thing is practical. At the moment I don’t see how one could get the energy/mass to do such a thing.
Those are just some quick ideas, I haven’t really looked into it all that much.
No, I agree that civilizations will tend to expand and colonize, and yes stealth considerations shouldn’t prevent this.
Thinking about it a little more, I agree. And yes when I mention not being energy constrained, that was in reference only to computation, not construction. I assume efficient construction is typically in place, using solar or fusion or whatever.
Yes, this seems to be on the right track. However, the orbits of planetary bodies are very predictable and gravity assists are reversible operations (I think), which seems to imply that the remaining objects in the system will contain history sufficient for predicting the ejection trajectory (for a rival superintelligence). You can erase the history only by creating heat … so maybe you end up sending some objects into the sun? :) Yes actually that seems pretty doable.