Your responses are typical, predictable. I’ve already answered them, many people have already answered them. Aside from completely misrepresenting my argument, resorting to memes rather than rational argument (again, I have no idea why you consider irrelevant memes more “productive” than formal, logically consistent argumentation—but yeah, I don’t and won’t ever take such rhetoric seriously), aside from having no apparent familiarity with any of the link subjects above, you appear specifically to be unaware that infants die and suffer, that 2 deaths are more than 1 death—or else my essay has somehow only just informed you of these facts. I honestly have no idea what to say to you at this point that I haven’t already said, other than that you should seriously consider examining the howling wolves in your own head? (I mean that encouragingly, non-dismissively, seriously. Therapy is a very powerful and potentially transformative process. I believe whole-heartedly in it for myself and for everyone.)
For other readers, though, at least: you’re certainly not going to convince me (or anyone like me) of any of the, frankly, incoherent strands of thought you’ve been pursuing in these comments. As you say, there can be no meeting of the minds between us. I can’t convince you to think more slowly, carefully, responsibly. I’m well acquainted with all the relevant arguments. I have met “you” hundreds of times over, at least. Nothing you’re saying is original or productive relative to the subject at hand, nor will any sarcasm intimidate me on this issue. Suffering matters, death matters, consent matters. If you want to make a nuanced argument regarding the ethical relevance of these three concepts, by all means. But I’ve presented you with several opportunities, and no bites.
“Euthanizing newborns”: nope. Have never said anything even remotely suggesting this, nor would I ever. As you’d know (or should) if you read anything I’ve said in my essay or comments on this thread: I believe in bodily autonomy, thus in reproductive autonomy. I believe a mother has a right to an abortion, due to her bodily autonomy. An abortion is the killing of a newborn (though this is the inviolable right of the mother)--human “euthanasia” generally suggests consent; euthanasia without consent, even in the form of, say, administering death-accelerating morphine to a hospice patient, is technically “killing”, according to my ethical perspective (although I believe it is justifiable relatively in the current absurdly inadequate end-of-life care system—quick aside: many hospice nurses understand my arguments completely, easily, as they generally don’t allow themselves to hide from reality behind memes). This is precisely why we should not wait until someone is unable to consent to offer them such life-ending pain relievers, if they wish to have them (voluntarily, for themselves). There are some instances, such as sufficient self-defense scenarios—and birth constitutes such a sufficient scenario, or should according to the most common legal definitions, as childbirth is the number one cause of death for young women worldwide and thus remains very dangerous for both mother and child—where killing is supposedly justifiable. I don’t personally believe in this, as I’m a radical pacifist, mostly-passive-resistance practitioner. But I at least understand why others would instinctively act according to their survival instinct to defend themselves, even to lethal extremes, especially under traumatic duress—which is precisely why, if you recall (you don’t, clearly), I consider reproduction to be, yes, the worst <single> ethical mistake one can make, consequentially, but also the most understandable, due to the survival instinct (at least, it’s the most understandable excepting killing in self-defense in extreme circumstances). If a mother wishes, she could have as many abortions as she can, tragic and pointless as that would be, and I would have no right to intervene into her bodily autonomy simply because there is loss of human life occurring (nor would I ever want such a “right”—bodily autonomy and consent are centrally important ethical concepts). There are ~623,000 abortions in the U.S. alone annually (so, right, Holocaust death levels roughly every 4-5 years). And, yes, this is tragic, mostly entirely preventable (except where reproduction is forced unjustly upon mothers). Do you oppose abortion rights? How far does your vitalism extend? Again, I believe there is no grounds for intervening into the reproductive process. Whatsoever. I do believe I have a right to offer a discouraging argument as to why we should voluntarily stop reproducing (go ahead and try to stop me)--and it is very productive (quite a bit more so than compiling memes); even one instance of one person refraining from reproducing can prevent an untold amount of suffering and death. Glad to speak into whatever microphone you or anyone else puts me in front of, at length, about this issue, anywhere, anytime. Set it up. I’m not paying for any plane tickets or meeting strangers in any unreasonably dangerous circumstances (especially not based on your comments here), but offer me any opportunity to soapbox on ethical anti-natalism in public and I’ll gladly take it. And I’ll speak confidently and at an easily audible volume and gladly field non-violent/non-abusive questions. People like yourself will turn the microphone off, though, in my experience (or worse). I’m encouraging granting legal access to voluntary euthanasia that people (brought into existence without consent) can have the right to avoid unnecessarily painful death. It’s a fairly common position among Effective Altruism practitioners.
Do I “hate my parents”? Firstly, none of your business? Have I brought up your personal life, or memes, or bullying dismissiveness in anything I’ve said to you? No, I’ve addressed my disagreements with what you’ve said, directly and consistently. Try it out, I guarantee it’s more productive than whatever you’re trying to accomplish here. Secondly, no, I don’t hate anybody, period. “Hatred” is an irrational mode of thought. I don’t even hate you, whatsoever, despite this exchange being rather fruitless and annoying. I just lament your reluctance to stop and think slowly and carefully about what I’m saying, rather than quickly jumping to what are obviously usual conclusions for you that have become unconscious, reactionary habit rather than deliberate, disciplined argumentation (what I was hoping for in posting).
Do I regret having been born? Again, none of your business? My personal feelings are irrelevant to the argument. But as I’m not willing to be bullied by you or anyone else regarding this crucially important argument, and on behalf of others: yeah, I do, as is also my right, for quite obvious reasons (suffering + death), and your personal subjective evaluation of existence has no bearing on my own. You seem to feel I’m challenging <you>, personally, and your right to enjoy your own existence, in my essay. You might consider, frankly, getting over yourself and focusing on the reality of childbirth, the actual topic at hand? The suffering of innocent existent children is more important than you, more important than me, more important than anyone or anything on LW. Aside from the fact that I’m in no way suggesting that others “hate” anything, in anything I’ve said here, even if I was, if I’m somehow capable of convincing you or anyone else, with a five paragraph essay, to devalue your existence and descend into obliterating despair, then that’s on <you>, not me. If you’re struggling to accept the reality of death and the real consequences of taken-for-granted/biased human behaviors, that’s on <you>, not me. If your worldview and personal identity can be so easily shaken that you forget basic facts of existence—that suffering exists, that consent is an indispensable component of any reasonable ethics, that death is real and psychologically significant—then that’s on <you>, not me. Anyone who negatively evaluates existence <is>, though, a living example of why reproduction is to be avoided. The number of people who outspokenly resent having been born without consent is a minority, sure, but, for one, admitting this has also been taboo for most of history (people like you, historically, have done far worse to people like me than pull the plug on a microphone), and, secondly, we are still a considerable number of people. Who are routinely being left out of the, yes, math, the very simple arithmetic (that some dogs are capable of doing) in evaluating the consequences of reproducing.
“I see that about 140 million people are born every year. Hitler had his millions, but procreation has its hundreds of millions.” There have been about ~117 billion humans throughout history (that’s just homo sapiens, not including earlier/contemporaneous ancestors/relatives). Again, math. (I’ll also gladly defend the necessity of mathematical thinking for pursuing Effective Altruism, by the way, anytime, anyplace.) You’re making my argument for me, though, yes. ~140 million > ~2 million. Correct. Hence, human reproduction is consequentially worse (~58500x) than the Holocaust. Correct. (Except you’re not getting it.) Furthermore, the Holocaust was itself only a subset manifestation of this overall death-production (those ~2 million were going to die anyway, due to having been born into this existence).
“Reproduction increases suffering and death without consent, by definition. This is simple addition, multiplication, an undeniable fact of biology—science long settled.”
Yep. Birth. Wild, right? It’s addition. And, at scale, multiplication. At times, it has even been exponentiation. That’s what it is. It can’t have a subtractive function with regard to suffering and death. There’s no sign-flip involved in birth. That’s the point of my essay. Birth does actually increase the number of pain-experiencing beings who do inevitably die, and none of them have consented. When I say “long settled”, I mean <long settled>. As in, for at least 4 billion years. I began the essay with this statement, because anyone incapable of conceding at least this fact is not worth reasoning with about this topic. And with that, I bid you adieu and bon voyage. Good luck with your memes and vitalism.
To quote the frontpage comment guidelines: “If you disagree, try getting curious about what your partner is thinking”. Solid advice.
Homework:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been
Your responses are typical, predictable. I’ve already answered them, many people have already answered them. Aside from completely misrepresenting my argument, resorting to memes rather than rational argument (again, I have no idea why you consider irrelevant memes more “productive” than formal, logically consistent argumentation—but yeah, I don’t and won’t ever take such rhetoric seriously), aside from having no apparent familiarity with any of the link subjects above, you appear specifically to be unaware that infants die and suffer, that 2 deaths are more than 1 death—or else my essay has somehow only just informed you of these facts. I honestly have no idea what to say to you at this point that I haven’t already said, other than that you should seriously consider examining the howling wolves in your own head? (I mean that encouragingly, non-dismissively, seriously. Therapy is a very powerful and potentially transformative process. I believe whole-heartedly in it for myself and for everyone.)
For other readers, though, at least: you’re certainly not going to convince me (or anyone like me) of any of the, frankly, incoherent strands of thought you’ve been pursuing in these comments. As you say, there can be no meeting of the minds between us. I can’t convince you to think more slowly, carefully, responsibly. I’m well acquainted with all the relevant arguments. I have met “you” hundreds of times over, at least. Nothing you’re saying is original or productive relative to the subject at hand, nor will any sarcasm intimidate me on this issue. Suffering matters, death matters, consent matters. If you want to make a nuanced argument regarding the ethical relevance of these three concepts, by all means. But I’ve presented you with several opportunities, and no bites.
“Euthanizing newborns”: nope. Have never said anything even remotely suggesting this, nor would I ever. As you’d know (or should) if you read anything I’ve said in my essay or comments on this thread: I believe in bodily autonomy, thus in reproductive autonomy. I believe a mother has a right to an abortion, due to her bodily autonomy. An abortion is the killing of a newborn (though this is the inviolable right of the mother)--human “euthanasia” generally suggests consent; euthanasia without consent, even in the form of, say, administering death-accelerating morphine to a hospice patient, is technically “killing”, according to my ethical perspective (although I believe it is justifiable relatively in the current absurdly inadequate end-of-life care system—quick aside: many hospice nurses understand my arguments completely, easily, as they generally don’t allow themselves to hide from reality behind memes). This is precisely why we should not wait until someone is unable to consent to offer them such life-ending pain relievers, if they wish to have them (voluntarily, for themselves). There are some instances, such as sufficient self-defense scenarios—and birth constitutes such a sufficient scenario, or should according to the most common legal definitions, as childbirth is the number one cause of death for young women worldwide and thus remains very dangerous for both mother and child—where killing is supposedly justifiable. I don’t personally believe in this, as I’m a radical pacifist, mostly-passive-resistance practitioner. But I at least understand why others would instinctively act according to their survival instinct to defend themselves, even to lethal extremes, especially under traumatic duress—which is precisely why, if you recall (you don’t, clearly), I consider reproduction to be, yes, the worst <single> ethical mistake one can make, consequentially, but also the most understandable, due to the survival instinct (at least, it’s the most understandable excepting killing in self-defense in extreme circumstances). If a mother wishes, she could have as many abortions as she can, tragic and pointless as that would be, and I would have no right to intervene into her bodily autonomy simply because there is loss of human life occurring (nor would I ever want such a “right”—bodily autonomy and consent are centrally important ethical concepts). There are ~623,000 abortions in the U.S. alone annually (so, right, Holocaust death levels roughly every 4-5 years). And, yes, this is tragic, mostly entirely preventable (except where reproduction is forced unjustly upon mothers). Do you oppose abortion rights? How far does your vitalism extend? Again, I believe there is no grounds for intervening into the reproductive process. Whatsoever. I do believe I have a right to offer a discouraging argument as to why we should voluntarily stop reproducing (go ahead and try to stop me)--and it is very productive (quite a bit more so than compiling memes); even one instance of one person refraining from reproducing can prevent an untold amount of suffering and death. Glad to speak into whatever microphone you or anyone else puts me in front of, at length, about this issue, anywhere, anytime. Set it up. I’m not paying for any plane tickets or meeting strangers in any unreasonably dangerous circumstances (especially not based on your comments here), but offer me any opportunity to soapbox on ethical anti-natalism in public and I’ll gladly take it. And I’ll speak confidently and at an easily audible volume and gladly field non-violent/non-abusive questions. People like yourself will turn the microphone off, though, in my experience (or worse). I’m encouraging granting legal access to voluntary euthanasia that people (brought into existence without consent) can have the right to avoid unnecessarily painful death. It’s a fairly common position among Effective Altruism practitioners.
Do I “hate my parents”? Firstly, none of your business? Have I brought up your personal life, or memes, or bullying dismissiveness in anything I’ve said to you? No, I’ve addressed my disagreements with what you’ve said, directly and consistently. Try it out, I guarantee it’s more productive than whatever you’re trying to accomplish here. Secondly, no, I don’t hate anybody, period. “Hatred” is an irrational mode of thought. I don’t even hate you, whatsoever, despite this exchange being rather fruitless and annoying. I just lament your reluctance to stop and think slowly and carefully about what I’m saying, rather than quickly jumping to what are obviously usual conclusions for you that have become unconscious, reactionary habit rather than deliberate, disciplined argumentation (what I was hoping for in posting).
Do I regret having been born? Again, none of your business? My personal feelings are irrelevant to the argument. But as I’m not willing to be bullied by you or anyone else regarding this crucially important argument, and on behalf of others: yeah, I do, as is also my right, for quite obvious reasons (suffering + death), and your personal subjective evaluation of existence has no bearing on my own. You seem to feel I’m challenging <you>, personally, and your right to enjoy your own existence, in my essay. You might consider, frankly, getting over yourself and focusing on the reality of childbirth, the actual topic at hand? The suffering of innocent existent children is more important than you, more important than me, more important than anyone or anything on LW. Aside from the fact that I’m in no way suggesting that others “hate” anything, in anything I’ve said here, even if I was, if I’m somehow capable of convincing you or anyone else, with a five paragraph essay, to devalue your existence and descend into obliterating despair, then that’s on <you>, not me. If you’re struggling to accept the reality of death and the real consequences of taken-for-granted/biased human behaviors, that’s on <you>, not me. If your worldview and personal identity can be so easily shaken that you forget basic facts of existence—that suffering exists, that consent is an indispensable component of any reasonable ethics, that death is real and psychologically significant—then that’s on <you>, not me. Anyone who negatively evaluates existence <is>, though, a living example of why reproduction is to be avoided. The number of people who outspokenly resent having been born without consent is a minority, sure, but, for one, admitting this has also been taboo for most of history (people like you, historically, have done far worse to people like me than pull the plug on a microphone), and, secondly, we are still a considerable number of people. Who are routinely being left out of the, yes, math, the very simple arithmetic (that some dogs are capable of doing) in evaluating the consequences of reproducing.
“I see that about 140 million people are born every year. Hitler had his millions, but procreation has its hundreds of millions.” There have been about ~117 billion humans throughout history (that’s just homo sapiens, not including earlier/contemporaneous ancestors/relatives). Again, math. (I’ll also gladly defend the necessity of mathematical thinking for pursuing Effective Altruism, by the way, anytime, anyplace.) You’re making my argument for me, though, yes. ~140 million > ~2 million. Correct. Hence, human reproduction is consequentially worse (~58500x) than the Holocaust. Correct. (Except you’re not getting it.) Furthermore, the Holocaust was itself only a subset manifestation of this overall death-production (those ~2 million were going to die anyway, due to having been born into this existence).
“Reproduction increases suffering and death without consent, by definition. This is simple addition, multiplication, an undeniable fact of biology—science long settled.”
Yep. Birth. Wild, right? It’s addition. And, at scale, multiplication. At times, it has even been exponentiation. That’s what it is. It can’t have a subtractive function with regard to suffering and death. There’s no sign-flip involved in birth. That’s the point of my essay. Birth does actually increase the number of pain-experiencing beings who do inevitably die, and none of them have consented. When I say “long settled”, I mean <long settled>. As in, for at least 4 billion years. I began the essay with this statement, because anyone incapable of conceding at least this fact is not worth reasoning with about this topic. And with that, I bid you adieu and bon voyage. Good luck with your memes and vitalism.
That’s ok.
I saw your Facebook, read back in it a ways.
I appreciate it.