Assume that dollars are utilons and they are linear (2 dollars indeed gives twice as much utility).
If each dollar gives the same amount of utility, then one person with $0 and one person with $1,000,000 would be just as good as two people with $500,000. That’s how utility is defined. If Bob doesn’t consider these choices just as good, then they do not give the same utility according to his PVG.
If you are a prioritarian, you’d go for specks. That said, I think you’d be less prioritarian if you had less of a scope insensitivity. If you really understood how much torture 3^^^3 dust specks produces, and you really understood how unlikely a 1/3^^^3 chance is, you’d probably go with torture.
If each dollar gives the same amount of utility, then one person with $0 and one person with $1,000,000 would be just as good as two people with $500,000. That’s how utility is defined. If Bob doesn’t consider these choices just as good, then they do not give the same utility according to his PVG.
I think this argument is unclear because there is two different senses of “utility” in play.
First, there is the sense from decision theory, your utility function encodes your preferences for different worlds. So if we were talking about Bob’s utility function, these states would indeed be indifferent per definition.
The other sense is from (naive?) utilitarianism, which states something like: “In order to decide which state of the world I prefer, I should take into account the preferences/happiness/something of other beings. In particular, I prefer states that maximize the sum of the utilities of everyone involved” (because that best agrees with everyone’s preferences?). This argument that we should prefer dustspecks in effect says that our utility functions should have this particular form.
But that is a rather strong statement! In particular, if you you find Rawl’s veil-of-ignorance appealing, your utility function does not have that form (it would seem to be the minimum rather than the sum of the other individuals’ utilities). So many actual humans are not that kind of utilitarians.
your utility function does not have that form (it would seem to be the minimum rather than the sum of the other individuals’ utilities).
The average, rather, if the people expect to get utility randomly sampled from the population distribution. The original position gives you total utilitarianism if the parties face the possibility of there “not being enough slots” for all.
If you really understood how much torture 3^^^3 dust specks produces...
You make a valid point. I will not deny that you have a strong point. All I ask is that you not deny me of having you remain consistent with your reasoning. I have reposted a thought experiment, please tell me what your answer is:
Omega has given you choice to allow or disallow 10 rapists to rape someone. Why 10 rapists? Omega knows the absolute utility across all humans, and unfortunately as terrible as it sounds, the suffering/torturing of 10 rapists not being able to rape is more suffering than what the victim feels. What do you do? 10 is < 3^^^3 suffering rapists. So lucky you, Omega need not burden you with the suffering of 3^^^3, if you chose to have rapist suffer. It is important that you not finagle your way out of the question. Please do not say that not being able to rape is not torture. Omega has already stated that indeed there is suffering for these rapist. It matters not if you would suffer such a thing.
Disclaimer: I am searching for the truth through rationality. I do not care whether the answer is torture, specks, or rape, only that it is the truth. If the rational answer is rape, I can do nothing but accept that for I am only in search of truth and not truth that fits me.
There are implications to choosing rape as the right answer. It means that in a rational society we must allow bad things to happen if that bad thing allows for total less suffering. We have to be consistent. Omega has given you a number of rapist far far far less than 3^^^3, surely you must allow for the rape to occur.
Literally, DanielLC, walks into a room with 10 rapists and a victim. The rapists tell him to “go away, and don’t call the cops.”. Omega appears and says, you may stop it if you want to, but I am all knowing and know that the utility experienced by the rapist or suffering from being deprived of raping is indeed greater than the suffering of the victim. What does Daniel do?
If you really understood how much torture 3^^^3 dust specks deprived rapists produces...
So is there an actual reason that you chose a topic as emotionally frought (and thus mind-killing) as rape, and at the same time created a made-up scenario where we’re asked to ignore anything we know about “rape” by being forced to not use our judgment but Omega’s on what constitutes utility?
And anyway, i think people misunderstand the purpose of utility. Daniel acts according to his own utility function. That function isn’t obliged to have a positive factor on the rapists’ utility; it may very well be negative. If said factor is negative, then the more utility the rapists get out of their rape, the less he’s inclined to let them commit it.
Omega has given you choice to allow or disallow 10 rapists to rape someone. Why 10 rapists? Omega knows the absolute utility across all humans, and unfortunately as terrible as it sounds, the suffering/torturing of 10 rapists not being able to rape is more suffering than what the victim feels.
Errr… I don’t care? I’m not a utilitarian. Utilitarian morals are more or less abhorrent to me. (So in conclusion I’d tell the rapists that they can go fuck themselves. But under no circumstances can they do the same to anyone else without consent.)
Please don’t use loaded words like that. It’s not worth while to let ten people rape someone. By using that word, you’re bringing in connotation that doesn’t apply.
It means that in a rational society we must allow bad things to happen if that bad thing allows for total less suffering.
Bad things happening can’t result in less suffering then no bad things happening, unless you allow negative suffering. In the example you gave, we can either choose for one person to suffer, or for ten. We must allow bad things to happen because they were the only options. There is no moral pattern or decision theory that can change that.
I’d go with allowing the “rape”. This situation is no different than if there were one rapist, ten victims, and the happiness from the rapist was less than the sadness from the victims. I’d hurt the fewer to help the many.
If each dollar gives the same amount of utility, then one person with $0 and one person with $1,000,000 would be just as good as two people with $500,000. That’s how utility is defined. If Bob doesn’t consider these choices just as good, then they do not give the same utility according to his PVG.
If you are a prioritarian, you’d go for specks. That said, I think you’d be less prioritarian if you had less of a scope insensitivity. If you really understood how much torture 3^^^3 dust specks produces, and you really understood how unlikely a 1/3^^^3 chance is, you’d probably go with torture.
I think this argument is unclear because there is two different senses of “utility” in play.
First, there is the sense from decision theory, your utility function encodes your preferences for different worlds. So if we were talking about Bob’s utility function, these states would indeed be indifferent per definition.
The other sense is from (naive?) utilitarianism, which states something like: “In order to decide which state of the world I prefer, I should take into account the preferences/happiness/something of other beings. In particular, I prefer states that maximize the sum of the utilities of everyone involved” (because that best agrees with everyone’s preferences?). This argument that we should prefer dustspecks in effect says that our utility functions should have this particular form.
But that is a rather strong statement! In particular, if you you find Rawl’s veil-of-ignorance appealing, your utility function does not have that form (it would seem to be the minimum rather than the sum of the other individuals’ utilities). So many actual humans are not that kind of utilitarians.
The average, rather, if the people expect to get utility randomly sampled from the population distribution. The original position gives you total utilitarianism if the parties face the possibility of there “not being enough slots” for all.
You make a valid point. I will not deny that you have a strong point. All I ask is that you not deny me of having you remain consistent with your reasoning. I have reposted a thought experiment, please tell me what your answer is:
Omega has given you choice to allow or disallow 10 rapists to rape someone. Why 10 rapists? Omega knows the absolute utility across all humans, and unfortunately as terrible as it sounds, the suffering/torturing of 10 rapists not being able to rape is more suffering than what the victim feels. What do you do? 10 is < 3^^^3 suffering rapists. So lucky you, Omega need not burden you with the suffering of 3^^^3, if you chose to have rapist suffer. It is important that you not finagle your way out of the question. Please do not say that not being able to rape is not torture. Omega has already stated that indeed there is suffering for these rapist. It matters not if you would suffer such a thing.
Disclaimer: I am searching for the truth through rationality. I do not care whether the answer is torture, specks, or rape, only that it is the truth. If the rational answer is rape, I can do nothing but accept that for I am only in search of truth and not truth that fits me.
There are implications to choosing rape as the right answer. It means that in a rational society we must allow bad things to happen if that bad thing allows for total less suffering. We have to be consistent. Omega has given you a number of rapist far far far less than 3^^^3, surely you must allow for the rape to occur.
Literally, DanielLC, walks into a room with 10 rapists and a victim. The rapists tell him to “go away, and don’t call the cops.”. Omega appears and says, you may stop it if you want to, but I am all knowing and know that the utility experienced by the rapist or suffering from being deprived of raping is indeed greater than the suffering of the victim. What does Daniel do?
So is there an actual reason that you chose a topic as emotionally frought (and thus mind-killing) as rape, and at the same time created a made-up scenario where we’re asked to ignore anything we know about “rape” by being forced to not use our judgment but Omega’s on what constitutes utility?
And anyway, i think people misunderstand the purpose of utility. Daniel acts according to his own utility function. That function isn’t obliged to have a positive factor on the rapists’ utility; it may very well be negative. If said factor is negative, then the more utility the rapists get out of their rape, the less he’s inclined to let them commit it.
Errr… I don’t care? I’m not a utilitarian. Utilitarian morals are more or less abhorrent to me. (So in conclusion I’d tell the rapists that they can go fuck themselves. But under no circumstances can they do the same to anyone else without consent.)
Please don’t use loaded words like that. It’s not worth while to let ten people rape someone. By using that word, you’re bringing in connotation that doesn’t apply.
Bad things happening can’t result in less suffering then no bad things happening, unless you allow negative suffering. In the example you gave, we can either choose for one person to suffer, or for ten. We must allow bad things to happen because they were the only options. There is no moral pattern or decision theory that can change that.
I’d go with allowing the “rape”. This situation is no different than if there were one rapist, ten victims, and the happiness from the rapist was less than the sadness from the victims. I’d hurt the fewer to help the many.