Excellent points. I now seek your consistency to test your beliefs. Prepare yourself to hear a sick and twisted problem.
Omega has given you choice to allow or disallow 10 rapist to rape someone. Why 10 rapist? Omega knows the absolute utility across all humans, and unfortunately as terrible as it sounds, the suffering/torturing of 10 rapist not being able to rape is more suffering than what the victim feels. What do you do? 10 is < 3^^^3 suffering rapists. So lucky you, Omega need not burden you with the suffering of 3^^^3, if you chose to have rapist suffer. It is important that you not finagle your way out of the question. Please do not say that not being able to rape is not torture. Omega has already stated that indeed there is suffering for these rapist. It matters not if you would suffer such a thing.
Disclaimer: I am searching for the truth through rationality. I do not care whether the answer is torture, specks, or rape, only that it is the truth. If the rational answer is rape, I can do nothing but accept that for I am only in search of truth and not truth that fits me.
There are implications to choosing rape as the right answer. It means that in a rational society we must allow bad things to happen if that bad thing allows for total less suffering. We have to be consistent. Omega has given you a number of rapist far far far less than 3^^^3, surely you must allow for the rape to occur.
Literally, Grognor walks into a room with 10 rapists and a victim. The rapists tell him to “go away, and don’t call the cops.”. Omega appears and says, you may stop it if you want to, but I am all knowing and know that the utility experienced by the rapist or suffering from being deprived of raping is indeed greater than the suffering of the victim. What does Grognor do?
Excellent points. I now seek your consistency to test your beliefs. Prepare yourself to hear a sick and twisted problem.
The problem with your problem is that it is wrong. You have Omega asserting something we have good reason to disbelieve. You might as well have Omega come in and announce that there is an entity somewhere who will suffer dreadfully if we don’t start eating babies.
All you’re saying is “suppose were actually good”? Well, suppose away. So what?
Do you see the difference between your Omega and the one who poses Newcomb’s problem?
I sincerely appreciate your reply. Why do we accept Omega in Eleizers thought experiment and not mine? In the original some people claim to obviously pick torture, yet unwilling to pick rape because why? Well, like you said, you refuse to believe that rapist suffer. That is fair. But if that is fair, then Bob might refuse to believe that people with specks in their eyes suffer as well...
You can not assign rules for one and not the other.
All you’re saying is “suppose were actually good”? Well, suppose away. So what?
Not true. I am saying that some people get utility from evil. Not me, not you but why am I not allowed to use that as an example?
Bottom line is that I personaly am unresolved and I will remain unresolved rationally across all examples. I know what I would do. I would 3^^^3 pick dust and follow up with 3^^^3 deprived rapists. But for strong “torturers” such as Grognor, depriving rapists will be inconsistent with his beliefs.
Well, like you said, you refuse to believe that rapist suffer.
I also “refuse” to believe that the Earth is flat—or to put it more accurately, I assert that it is false.
That is fair. But if that is fair, then Bob might refuse to believe that people with specks in their eyes suffer as well...
The difference is that Bob would be wrong.
Not me, not you but why am I not allowed to use that as an example?
Making random shit up and saying “what if this?”, “what if that?” doesn’t make for a useful discussion.
Then again, I am not a utilitarian, so I have no problem with saying that the more someone wants to do an evil thing, the more they should be prevented from doing it.
There are two major problems with your proposition.
One is that Omega appears to be lying in this problem, very simply. In the universe where he isn’t lying, though...
I’m partly what you’d call a “negative utilitarian”. That’s minimize suffering first, then maximize joy. It does not appear to me that not being able to rape people for a small number of hedonists (like, say, the number of rapists on the planet) is greater than the suffering that would be inflicted if they had their way.
If you accept those premises I just put forward, then you understand that my choice is to stop the rapists for utilitarian reasons also because I don’t want them to do this again.
So okay, least-convenient possible world time. Given that they won’t cause any additional suffering after this incident, given that their suffering from not being able to commit rape is greater than the victim’s (why this would be true I have no idea), then sure, whatever, let them have their fun shortly before their logically ridiculous universe is destroyed because the consequences of this incident as interpreted by our universe would not occur.
I hope this justifies my position from a utilitarian standpoint, though I do have deontological concerns about rape. It’s one of those things that seems to Actually Be Unacceptable, but I hope I’ve put this intuition sufficiently aside to address your concerns.
One more thing… It kind of pisses me off that people still bring up the torture vs. dust specks thing. From where I stand, the debate is indisputably settled. But, ah, I guess you might call that “arrogance”. But whatever.
Then you are not consistent. For one example you are willing to allow suffering because the 50 years of torture is less than 3^^^3 dust holocaust yet. You claim that suffering is suffering. Yet only 10 deprived rapist already has you changing your thoughts.
I do not have an answer. If anything I would consider my self a weak dusk specker. The only thing that I claim is I am not arrogant, I am consistent in my stance. I do not know the answer but am willing to explore the dilemma of torture vs speck, and rape vs deprived rapists. Torture is rape is it not? Yet I will allow torture for 50 years because you do not believe that deprived rapist are not suffering. I am afraid that is not up to you to decide.
All I ask is to present tough questions. The down votes I believe are hurting discussion as I have never declared any thing controversial accept ask people to reconcile their beliefs to be consistent. I am actually quite disappointing in how easily people are frustrated. I apologize if I have pissed you off.
You must have missed the part of my response where I say that given your premises, yes, I choose to let the fucking rapists commit the crime. The rest of my post just details how your premises are wrong. I am internally consistent.
Your comment was saying that “if you change your answer here, it shows that you are not consistent.” I replied with reasons that this is not true, and you replied by continuing on the premise that it is true.
No! You do not get to decide whether I’m consistent!
See alsothis comment, which deserves a medal. Your problem is wrong, which is why you’re coming to this incorrect conclusion that I am inconsistent.
Thanks for your reply. You are right you are consistent as you did admit in your second scenario that you would let the sickos have their fun.
I would like to continue the discussion on why my problem is wrong in a friendly and respectable way, but the negative score points really are threatening my ability to post, which is quite unfortunate.
Excellent points. I now seek your consistency to test your beliefs. Prepare yourself to hear a sick and twisted problem.
Omega has given you choice to allow or disallow 10 rapist to rape someone. Why 10 rapist? Omega knows the absolute utility across all humans, and unfortunately as terrible as it sounds, the suffering/torturing of 10 rapist not being able to rape is more suffering than what the victim feels. What do you do? 10 is < 3^^^3 suffering rapists. So lucky you, Omega need not burden you with the suffering of 3^^^3, if you chose to have rapist suffer. It is important that you not finagle your way out of the question. Please do not say that not being able to rape is not torture. Omega has already stated that indeed there is suffering for these rapist. It matters not if you would suffer such a thing.
Disclaimer: I am searching for the truth through rationality. I do not care whether the answer is torture, specks, or rape, only that it is the truth. If the rational answer is rape, I can do nothing but accept that for I am only in search of truth and not truth that fits me.
There are implications to choosing rape as the right answer. It means that in a rational society we must allow bad things to happen if that bad thing allows for total less suffering. We have to be consistent. Omega has given you a number of rapist far far far less than 3^^^3, surely you must allow for the rape to occur.
Literally, Grognor walks into a room with 10 rapists and a victim. The rapists tell him to “go away, and don’t call the cops.”. Omega appears and says, you may stop it if you want to, but I am all knowing and know that the utility experienced by the rapist or suffering from being deprived of raping is indeed greater than the suffering of the victim. What does Grognor do?
The problem with your problem is that it is wrong. You have Omega asserting something we have good reason to disbelieve. You might as well have Omega come in and announce that there is an entity somewhere who will suffer dreadfully if we don’t start eating babies.
All you’re saying is “suppose were actually good”? Well, suppose away. So what?
Do you see the difference between your Omega and the one who poses Newcomb’s problem?
Richard
I sincerely appreciate your reply. Why do we accept Omega in Eleizers thought experiment and not mine? In the original some people claim to obviously pick torture, yet unwilling to pick rape because why? Well, like you said, you refuse to believe that rapist suffer. That is fair. But if that is fair, then Bob might refuse to believe that people with specks in their eyes suffer as well...
You can not assign rules for one and not the other.
Not true. I am saying that some people get utility from evil. Not me, not you but why am I not allowed to use that as an example?
Bottom line is that I personaly am unresolved and I will remain unresolved rationally across all examples. I know what I would do. I would 3^^^3 pick dust and follow up with 3^^^3 deprived rapists. But for strong “torturers” such as Grognor, depriving rapists will be inconsistent with his beliefs.
I also “refuse” to believe that the Earth is flat—or to put it more accurately, I assert that it is false.
The difference is that Bob would be wrong.
Making random shit up and saying “what if this?”, “what if that?” doesn’t make for a useful discussion.
Then again, I am not a utilitarian, so I have no problem with saying that the more someone wants to do an evil thing, the more they should be prevented from doing it.
There are two major problems with your proposition.
One is that Omega appears to be lying in this problem, very simply. In the universe where he isn’t lying, though...
I’m partly what you’d call a “negative utilitarian”. That’s minimize suffering first, then maximize joy. It does not appear to me that not being able to rape people for a small number of hedonists (like, say, the number of rapists on the planet) is greater than the suffering that would be inflicted if they had their way.
If you accept those premises I just put forward, then you understand that my choice is to stop the rapists for utilitarian reasons also because I don’t want them to do this again.
So okay, least-convenient possible world time. Given that they won’t cause any additional suffering after this incident, given that their suffering from not being able to commit rape is greater than the victim’s (why this would be true I have no idea), then sure, whatever, let them have their fun shortly before their logically ridiculous universe is destroyed because the consequences of this incident as interpreted by our universe would not occur.
I hope this justifies my position from a utilitarian standpoint, though I do have deontological concerns about rape. It’s one of those things that seems to Actually Be Unacceptable, but I hope I’ve put this intuition sufficiently aside to address your concerns.
One more thing… It kind of pisses me off that people still bring up the torture vs. dust specks thing. From where I stand, the debate is indisputably settled. But, ah, I guess you might call that “arrogance”. But whatever.
Then you are not consistent. For one example you are willing to allow suffering because the 50 years of torture is less than 3^^^3 dust holocaust yet. You claim that suffering is suffering. Yet only 10 deprived rapist already has you changing your thoughts.
I do not have an answer. If anything I would consider my self a weak dusk specker. The only thing that I claim is I am not arrogant, I am consistent in my stance. I do not know the answer but am willing to explore the dilemma of torture vs speck, and rape vs deprived rapists. Torture is rape is it not? Yet I will allow torture for 50 years because you do not believe that deprived rapist are not suffering. I am afraid that is not up to you to decide.
All I ask is to present tough questions. The down votes I believe are hurting discussion as I have never declared any thing controversial accept ask people to reconcile their beliefs to be consistent. I am actually quite disappointing in how easily people are frustrated. I apologize if I have pissed you off.
You must have missed the part of my response where I say that given your premises, yes, I choose to let the fucking rapists commit the crime. The rest of my post just details how your premises are wrong. I am internally consistent.
Your comment was saying that “if you change your answer here, it shows that you are not consistent.” I replied with reasons that this is not true, and you replied by continuing on the premise that it is true.
No! You do not get to decide whether I’m consistent!
See also this comment, which deserves a medal. Your problem is wrong, which is why you’re coming to this incorrect conclusion that I am inconsistent.
Grognor,
Thanks for your reply. You are right you are consistent as you did admit in your second scenario that you would let the sickos have their fun.
I would like to continue the discussion on why my problem is wrong in a friendly and respectable way, but the negative score points really are threatening my ability to post, which is quite unfortunate.