I can’t reply to some of the comments, because they are below the threshold. Replies to downvoted comments are apparently “discouraged” but not banned, and I’m not on LW for any other reason than this, so let’s give it a shot. I don’t suppose I am simply required to not reply to a critical post about my own work.
First of all, thanks for the replies, and I no longer feel bad for the about −35 “karma” points I received. I could have tried to write some sort of a general introduction to you, but I’ve attempted to write them earlier, and I’ve found dialogue to be a better way. The book I wrote is a general introduction, but it’s 140 pages long. Furthermore, my published wouldn’t want me to give it away for free, and the style isn’t very fitting to LessWrong. I’d perhaps hape to write another book and publish it for free as a series of LessWrong articles.
Mitchell_Porter said:
Tuukka’s system looks like a case study in how a handful of potentially valid insights can be buried under a structure made of wordplay (multiple uses of “irrational”); networks of concepts in which formal structures are artificially repeated but the actual relations between concepts are fatally vague (his big flowchart); and a severe misuse of mathematical objects and propositions in an attempt to be rigorous.
The contents of the normative and objective continua are relatively easily processed by an average LW user. The objective continuum consists of dialectic (classical quality) about sensory input. Sensory input is categorized as it is categorized in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. I know there is some criticism of Maslow’s theory, but can be accept it as a starting point? “Lower needs” includes homeostasis, eating, sex, excretion and such. “Higher needs” includes reputation, respect, intimacy and such. “Deliberation” includes Maslow’s “self-actuation”, that is, problem solving, creativity, learning and such. Sense-data is not included in Maslow’s theory, but it could be assumed that humans have a need to have sensory experiences, and that this need is so easy to satisfy that it did not occur to Maslow to include it as the lowest need of his hierarchy.
The normative continuum is similarily split to a dialectic portion and a “sensory” portion. That is to say, a central thesis of the work is that there are some kind of mathematical intuitions that are not language, but that are used to operate in the domain of pure math and logic. In order to demonstrate that “mathematical intuitions” really do exist, let us consider the case of a synesthetic savant, who is able to evaluate numbers according to how they “feel”, and use this feeling to determine whether the number is a prime. The “feeling” is sense-data, but the correlation between the feeling and primality is some other kind of non-lingual intuition.
If synesthetic primality checks exist, it follows that mathematical ability is not entirely based on language. Synesthetic primality checks do exist for some people, and not for others. However, I believe we all experience mathematical intuitions—for most, the experiences are just not as clear as they are for synesthetic savants. If the existence of mathematical intuition is denied, synesthetic primality checks are claimed impossible due to mere metaphysical skepticism in spite of lots of evidence that they do exist and produce strikingly accurate results.
Does this make sense? If so, I can continue.
Mitchell_Porter also said:
Occasionally you get someone who constructs their system in the awareness that it’s a product of their own mind and not just an objective depiction of the facts as they were found
I’m aware of that. Objectivity is just one continuum in the theory.
Having written his sequel to Pirsig he now needs to outgrow that act as soon as possible, and acquire some genuine expertise in an intersubjectively recognized domain, so that he has people to talk with and not just talk at.
I’m not exactly in trouble. I have a publisher and I have people to talk with. I can talk with a mathematician I know and on LilaSquad. But given that Pirsig’s legacy appears to be continental philosophy, nobody on LilaSquad can help me improve the formal approach even though some are interested of it. I can talk about everything else with them. Likewise, the mathematician is only interested of the formal structure of the theory and perhaps slightly of the normative continuum, but not of anything else. I wouldn’t say I have something to prove or that I need something in particular. I’m mostly just interested to find out how you will react to this.
What I was picking up on in Tuukka’s statement was that the irrationals are uncountable whereas the rationals are countable. So the rationals have the cardinality of a set of discrete combinatorial structures, like possible sentences in a language, whereas the irrationals have the cardinality of a true continuum, like a set of possible experiences, if you imagined qualia to be genuinely real-valued properties and e.g. the visual field to be a manifold in the topological sense. It would be a way of saying “descriptions are countable in number, experiences are uncountable”.
Something to that effect. This is another reason why I like talking with people. They express things I’ve thought about with a different wording. I could never make progress just stuck in my head.
I’d say the irrational continua do not have fixed notions of truth and falsehood. If something is “true” now, there is no guarantee it will persist as a rule in the future. There are no proof methods of methods of justification. In a sense, the notions of truth and falsehood are so distorted in the irrational continua that they hardly qualify as truth or falsehood—even if the Bible, operating in the subjective continuum, would proclaim that it’s “the truth” that Jesus is the Christ.
Mitchell asked:
Incidentally, would I be correct in guessing that Robert Pirsig never replied to you?
As far as I know, the letter was never delivered to Pirsig. The insiders of MoQ-Discuss said their mailing list is strictly for discussing Pirsig’s thoughts, not any derivative work. The only active member of Lila Squad who I presume to have Pirsig’s e-mail address said Pirsig doesn’t understand the Metaphysics of Quality himself anymore. It seemed pointless to press the issue that the letter be delivered to him. When the book is out, I can that to him via his publisher and hope he’ll receive it. The letter wasn’t even very good—the book is better.
I thought Pirsig might want to help me with development of the theory, but it turned out I didn’t require his help. Now I only hope he’ll enjoy reading the book.
I can’t reply to some of the comments, because they are below the threshold. Replies to downvoted comments are apparently “discouraged” but not banned, and I’m not on LW for any other reason than this, so let’s give it a shot. I don’t suppose I am simply required to not reply to a critical post about my own work.
First of all, thanks for the replies, and I no longer feel bad for the about −35 “karma” points I received. I could have tried to write some sort of a general introduction to you, but I’ve attempted to write them earlier, and I’ve found dialogue to be a better way. The book I wrote is a general introduction, but it’s 140 pages long. Furthermore, my published wouldn’t want me to give it away for free, and the style isn’t very fitting to LessWrong. I’d perhaps hape to write another book and publish it for free as a series of LessWrong articles.
Mitchell_Porter said:
The contents of the normative and objective continua are relatively easily processed by an average LW user. The objective continuum consists of dialectic (classical quality) about sensory input. Sensory input is categorized as it is categorized in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. I know there is some criticism of Maslow’s theory, but can be accept it as a starting point? “Lower needs” includes homeostasis, eating, sex, excretion and such. “Higher needs” includes reputation, respect, intimacy and such. “Deliberation” includes Maslow’s “self-actuation”, that is, problem solving, creativity, learning and such. Sense-data is not included in Maslow’s theory, but it could be assumed that humans have a need to have sensory experiences, and that this need is so easy to satisfy that it did not occur to Maslow to include it as the lowest need of his hierarchy.
The normative continuum is similarily split to a dialectic portion and a “sensory” portion. That is to say, a central thesis of the work is that there are some kind of mathematical intuitions that are not language, but that are used to operate in the domain of pure math and logic. In order to demonstrate that “mathematical intuitions” really do exist, let us consider the case of a synesthetic savant, who is able to evaluate numbers according to how they “feel”, and use this feeling to determine whether the number is a prime. The “feeling” is sense-data, but the correlation between the feeling and primality is some other kind of non-lingual intuition.
If synesthetic primality checks exist, it follows that mathematical ability is not entirely based on language. Synesthetic primality checks do exist for some people, and not for others. However, I believe we all experience mathematical intuitions—for most, the experiences are just not as clear as they are for synesthetic savants. If the existence of mathematical intuition is denied, synesthetic primality checks are claimed impossible due to mere metaphysical skepticism in spite of lots of evidence that they do exist and produce strikingly accurate results.
Does this make sense? If so, I can continue.
Mitchell_Porter also said:
I’m aware of that. Objectivity is just one continuum in the theory.
I’m not exactly in trouble. I have a publisher and I have people to talk with. I can talk with a mathematician I know and on LilaSquad. But given that Pirsig’s legacy appears to be continental philosophy, nobody on LilaSquad can help me improve the formal approach even though some are interested of it. I can talk about everything else with them. Likewise, the mathematician is only interested of the formal structure of the theory and perhaps slightly of the normative continuum, but not of anything else. I wouldn’t say I have something to prove or that I need something in particular. I’m mostly just interested to find out how you will react to this.
Something to that effect. This is another reason why I like talking with people. They express things I’ve thought about with a different wording. I could never make progress just stuck in my head.
I’d say the irrational continua do not have fixed notions of truth and falsehood. If something is “true” now, there is no guarantee it will persist as a rule in the future. There are no proof methods of methods of justification. In a sense, the notions of truth and falsehood are so distorted in the irrational continua that they hardly qualify as truth or falsehood—even if the Bible, operating in the subjective continuum, would proclaim that it’s “the truth” that Jesus is the Christ.
Mitchell asked:
As far as I know, the letter was never delivered to Pirsig. The insiders of MoQ-Discuss said their mailing list is strictly for discussing Pirsig’s thoughts, not any derivative work. The only active member of Lila Squad who I presume to have Pirsig’s e-mail address said Pirsig doesn’t understand the Metaphysics of Quality himself anymore. It seemed pointless to press the issue that the letter be delivered to him. When the book is out, I can that to him via his publisher and hope he’ll receive it. The letter wasn’t even very good—the book is better.
I thought Pirsig might want to help me with development of the theory, but it turned out I didn’t require his help. Now I only hope he’ll enjoy reading the book.