So on a related point that may or may not be worth its own post. Looking at the new Less Wrong facebook group one rapidly becomes aware that basically everyone here is demographically identical. The vast majority are white men in their twenties- and among those who volunteered the information, most had degrees in math, science or philosophy. There did appear to be a large international presence (and by international I mean European).
So my question is 1) why? What about the Less Wrong project selects YWM and 2) is it a problem? I tend to think that someone biography influences their perspective to such an extent that its useful to talk to and read people with different biographical backgrounds. So maybe its just a matter of reading different blogs… on the other hand if you’re trying to build a broad rationalist movement then we’re doing something wrong, no?
With regard to school degrees, I would expect that the most popular fields of study for LW folks would be cognitive science, other sciences, mathematics, and philosophy, so that’s no surprise. It has been my experience that people who are interested in rationality as a subject are generally interested in most or all of the above, and that people not interested in most or all of the above are generally not interested in rationality as a general topic.
I suspect that you’ll find computer science (my own field of study) is very highly represented. Maybe even a majority. That’s because within our field, any false beliefs and sloppy thinking eventually surface in the form of bugs; we spend hundreds of hours searching for and fixing these problems, which is applied rationality in pure form, with feedback. All programmers are forced to get in the habit of questioning their beliefs, and for us, improving cognitive skills has a very short payback period.
That’s because within our field, any false beliefs and sloppy thinking eventually surface in the form of bugs...
Flattering theory, but it doesn’t explain the abundance of programmers on Reddit where no one tries to overcome bias. I have a simpler theory: we programmers have a habit of surfing the internet looking for intellectual junk food.
You have to make a distinction between programmers in general and great programmers (or aspiring great programmers). The average programmer cares about bias no more (or little more) than the average person. But if you love programming and desire to become a jedi programmer, you absolutely have to get in the habit of being reflective about the underlying biases that were responsible for bugs, poor design decisions, etc., and figure out how the jedi are able to do what they do.
Read some interviews with (or writings of) great programmers—people like Jon Bentley, Bill Joy, etc.: you’ll see that they have great insight into cognitive biases that have to be overcome to become a great programmer, and they have found ways to overcome those biases.
Of course. I don’t know how I forgot to include computer science, but you could argue that it is included in “mathematics and the sciences”. Comp sci would probably be the largest group, both because of the large overlap between AI and rationality as well as the habit of questioning beliefs that good programmers engage in.
Agreed. I hold an undergraduate degree in computer science as well, and I’m quite certain that Eliezer has at minimum a graduate student’s level of knowledge in the field.
Of course, computer science is arguably either a subset of applied mathematics, or an intersection of mathematics and engineering.
The question of youth seems easy, and I would expect LW readers to skew young. LW is heavily focused on a form of self-improvement that requires serious investment of effort and willingness to challenge preconceived notions. Youth is on average more open to new experience, is often engaged in deep questioning of their worldview already, has lots of time available, and is more likely to have the discipline required for intellectual reading/learning, since they’re probably doing it at school/university already anyway. Most people do not like learning, and apart from learning related to their jobs, have no interest in continuing to learn after their formal education ends.
Not tackling the question of LW WM-ness for now, but this has been discussed before over at OB. I’d be curious if there’s a significant difference between the proportion of WMs among LW readers and the proportion of WMs among the obvious feeder disciplines though...
I wonder whether this means that we’re missing out on a lot of potential expertise though. (I’m thinking particularly of academics here, so discipline, interest etc. are assured.)
On the other hand, there’s a chance that the youth skew is partially a function of the facebook side of the facebook/LW intersection...
I would like to see more people who practice rationality and assumption questioning in other disciplices: women’s studies, public policy, art and literature. I took a lot of literary philosophy classes back in the day and read quite a few post-modern critiques that mirror what I see on Less Wrong.
Almost every post-modern analysis depends on questioning how someone framed their subject and proceeds to recommend different assumptions; surely people with these backgrounds have examples to offer outside of game theory and psychology.
It would also be good to see some legal types. Lawyers competing in front of Judges who then make decisions that affect people’s lives must certainly have put a little thought toward the roles of rationality and persuasion in truth seeking. Even if you don’t care for lawyers, you have to wonder how judges proceed.
Maybe we should invade other forums and lead the discussions back here?
EDIT ( In regard to that OB post on female perspectives, its interesting that Robin Hanson of all people wasn’t more humble about his potential lack of knowledge in a new field when his post got a poor response! Goes to show how important other perspectives are to this project)
So on a related point that may or may not be worth its own post. Looking at the new Less Wrong facebook group one rapidly becomes aware that basically everyone here is demographically identical. The vast majority are white men in their twenties- and among those who volunteered the information, most had degrees in math, science or philosophy. There did appear to be a large international presence (and by international I mean European).
So my question is 1) why? What about the Less Wrong project selects YWM and 2) is it a problem? I tend to think that someone biography influences their perspective to such an extent that its useful to talk to and read people with different biographical backgrounds. So maybe its just a matter of reading different blogs… on the other hand if you’re trying to build a broad rationalist movement then we’re doing something wrong, no?
With regard to school degrees, I would expect that the most popular fields of study for LW folks would be cognitive science, other sciences, mathematics, and philosophy, so that’s no surprise. It has been my experience that people who are interested in rationality as a subject are generally interested in most or all of the above, and that people not interested in most or all of the above are generally not interested in rationality as a general topic.
I suspect that you’ll find computer science (my own field of study) is very highly represented. Maybe even a majority. That’s because within our field, any false beliefs and sloppy thinking eventually surface in the form of bugs; we spend hundreds of hours searching for and fixing these problems, which is applied rationality in pure form, with feedback. All programmers are forced to get in the habit of questioning their beliefs, and for us, improving cognitive skills has a very short payback period.
That’s because within our field, any false beliefs and sloppy thinking eventually surface in the form of bugs...
Flattering theory, but it doesn’t explain the abundance of programmers on Reddit where no one tries to overcome bias. I have a simpler theory: we programmers have a habit of surfing the internet looking for intellectual junk food.
You have to make a distinction between programmers in general and great programmers (or aspiring great programmers). The average programmer cares about bias no more (or little more) than the average person. But if you love programming and desire to become a jedi programmer, you absolutely have to get in the habit of being reflective about the underlying biases that were responsible for bugs, poor design decisions, etc., and figure out how the jedi are able to do what they do.
Read some interviews with (or writings of) great programmers—people like Jon Bentley, Bill Joy, etc.: you’ll see that they have great insight into cognitive biases that have to be overcome to become a great programmer, and they have found ways to overcome those biases.
Of course. I don’t know how I forgot to include computer science, but you could argue that it is included in “mathematics and the sciences”. Comp sci would probably be the largest group, both because of the large overlap between AI and rationality as well as the habit of questioning beliefs that good programmers engage in.
Agreed. I hold an undergraduate degree in computer science as well, and I’m quite certain that Eliezer has at minimum a graduate student’s level of knowledge in the field.
Of course, computer science is arguably either a subset of applied mathematics, or an intersection of mathematics and engineering.
potentially economics too...
The question of youth seems easy, and I would expect LW readers to skew young. LW is heavily focused on a form of self-improvement that requires serious investment of effort and willingness to challenge preconceived notions. Youth is on average more open to new experience, is often engaged in deep questioning of their worldview already, has lots of time available, and is more likely to have the discipline required for intellectual reading/learning, since they’re probably doing it at school/university already anyway. Most people do not like learning, and apart from learning related to their jobs, have no interest in continuing to learn after their formal education ends.
Not tackling the question of LW WM-ness for now, but this has been discussed before over at OB. I’d be curious if there’s a significant difference between the proportion of WMs among LW readers and the proportion of WMs among the obvious feeder disciplines though...
I wonder whether this means that we’re missing out on a lot of potential expertise though. (I’m thinking particularly of academics here, so discipline, interest etc. are assured.)
On the other hand, there’s a chance that the youth skew is partially a function of the facebook side of the facebook/LW intersection...
I would like to see more people who practice rationality and assumption questioning in other disciplices: women’s studies, public policy, art and literature. I took a lot of literary philosophy classes back in the day and read quite a few post-modern critiques that mirror what I see on Less Wrong.
Almost every post-modern analysis depends on questioning how someone framed their subject and proceeds to recommend different assumptions; surely people with these backgrounds have examples to offer outside of game theory and psychology.
It would also be good to see some legal types. Lawyers competing in front of Judges who then make decisions that affect people’s lives must certainly have put a little thought toward the roles of rationality and persuasion in truth seeking. Even if you don’t care for lawyers, you have to wonder how judges proceed.
Maybe we should invade other forums and lead the discussions back here?
EDIT ( In regard to that OB post on female perspectives, its interesting that Robin Hanson of all people wasn’t more humble about his potential lack of knowledge in a new field when his post got a poor response! Goes to show how important other perspectives are to this project)
I’ll read some OB and LW articles to my mom and hear why she’s not interested in rationality.
Though, I can predict her response already: “You know how emotional I am! And you know I can’t help it.”
Feeling Rational
Exactly. :)
I like this idea. Let me know the result.