Firstly northing I have mentioned is on any list of banned topics.
I would be completely indifferent if you did. I don’t choose defy that list (that would achieve little) but neither do I have any particular respect for it. As such I would take no responsibility for aiding the enforcement thereof.
Secondly, the Paperclipper is about exploring theoretical issues of rationality and morality.
Yes. The kind of rationality you reject, not the kind of ‘rationality’ that is about being vegan and paperclippers deciding to behave according to your morals because of “True Understanding of Pain Quale”.
You can legitimately claim to be only interested in doing certain things, but you can’t win a debate by claiming to be uninterested in other people’s points.
I can claim to have tired of a constant stream of non-sequiturs from users who are essentially ignorant of the basic principles of rationality (the lesswrong kind, not the “Paperclippers that are Truly Superintelligent would be vegans” kind) and have next to zero chance of learning anything. You have declared that you aren’t interested in talking about rationality and your repeated equivocations around that term lower the sanity waterline. It is time to start weeding.
Yes. The kind of rationality you reject, not the kind of ‘rationality’ that is about being vegan and paperclippers deciding to behave according to your morals because of “True Understanding of Pain Quale”.
I said nothing about veganism, and you still can;t prove anything by stipulative definition, and I am not claiming to have the One True theory of anything.
You have declared that you aren’t interested in talking about rationality
I haven’t and I have been discussing it extensively.
You have declared that you aren’t interested in talking about rationality
I haven’t and I have been discussing it extensively.
Can we please stop doing this?
You and wedrifid aren’t actually disagreeing here about what you’ve been discussing, or what you’re interested in discussing, or what you’ve declared that you aren’t interested in discussing. You’re disagreeing about what the word “rationality” means. You use it to refer to a thing that you have been discussing extensively (and which wedrifid would agree you have been discussing extensively), he uses it to refer to something else (as does almost everyone reading this discussion).
And you both know this perfectly well, but here you are going through the motions of conversation just as if you were talking about the same thing. It is at best tedious, and runs the risk of confusing people who aren’t paying careful enough attention into thinking you’re having a real substantive disagreements rather than a mere definitional dispute.
If we can’t agree on a common definition (which I’m convinced by now we can’t), and we can’t agree not to use the word at all (which I suspect we can’t), can we at least agree to explicitly indicate which definition we’re using when we use the word? Otherwise whatever value there may be in the discussion is simply going to get lost in masturbatory word-play.
Well, can you articulate what it is you and wedrifid are both referring to using the word “rationality” without using the words or its simple synonyms, then? Because reading your exchanges, I have no idea what that thing might be.
What I call rationality is a superset of instrumental. I have been arguing that instrumental rationality, when pursued sufficiently bleeds into other forms.
So, just to echo that back to you… we have two things, A and B. On your account, “rationality” refers to A, which is a superset of B. We posit that on wedrifid’s account, “rationality” refers to B and does not refer to A.
Yes?
If so, I don’t see how that changes my initial point.
When wedrifid says X is true of rationality, on your account he’s asserting X(B) -- that is, that X is true of B. Replying that NOT X(A) is nonresponsive (though might be a useful step along the way to deriving NOT X(B) ), and phrasing NOT X(A) as “no, X is not true of rationality” just causes confusion.
On your account, “rationality” refers to A, which is a superset of B.
We posit that on wedrifid’s account, “rationality” refers to B and does not refer to A.
It refers to part of A, since it is a subset of A.
When wedrifid says X is true of rationality, on your account he’s asserting X(B) -- that is, that X is true of B. Replying that NOT X(A) is nonresponsive
It would be if A and B were disjoint. But they are not. They are in a superset-subset relation. My arguments is that an entity running on narrowly construed, instrumental rationality will, if it self improves, have to move into wider kinds. ie,that putting labels on different parts of the territoy is not sufficient to prove
orthogonality.
I would be completely indifferent if you did. I don’t choose defy that list (that would achieve little) but neither do I have any particular respect for it. As such I would take no responsibility for aiding the enforcement thereof.
Yes. The kind of rationality you reject, not the kind of ‘rationality’ that is about being vegan and paperclippers deciding to behave according to your morals because of “True Understanding of Pain Quale”.
I can claim to have tired of a constant stream of non-sequiturs from users who are essentially ignorant of the basic principles of rationality (the lesswrong kind, not the “Paperclippers that are Truly Superintelligent would be vegans” kind) and have next to zero chance of learning anything. You have declared that you aren’t interested in talking about rationality and your repeated equivocations around that term lower the sanity waterline. It is time to start weeding.
I said nothing about veganism, and you still can;t prove anything by stipulative definition, and I am not claiming to have the One True theory of anything.
I haven’t and I have been discussing it extensively.
Can we please stop doing this?
You and wedrifid aren’t actually disagreeing here about what you’ve been discussing, or what you’re interested in discussing, or what you’ve declared that you aren’t interested in discussing. You’re disagreeing about what the word “rationality” means. You use it to refer to a thing that you have been discussing extensively (and which wedrifid would agree you have been discussing extensively), he uses it to refer to something else (as does almost everyone reading this discussion).
And you both know this perfectly well, but here you are going through the motions of conversation just as if you were talking about the same thing. It is at best tedious, and runs the risk of confusing people who aren’t paying careful enough attention into thinking you’re having a real substantive disagreements rather than a mere definitional dispute.
If we can’t agree on a common definition (which I’m convinced by now we can’t), and we can’t agree not to use the word at all (which I suspect we can’t), can we at least agree to explicitly indicate which definition we’re using when we use the word? Otherwise whatever value there may be in the discussion is simply going to get lost in masturbatory word-play.
I don’t accept his theory that he is talking about something entirely different, and it would be disastrous for LW anyway.
Huh. (blinks)
Well, can you articulate what it is you and wedrifid are both referring to using the word “rationality” without using the words or its simple synonyms, then? Because reading your exchanges, I have no idea what that thing might be.
What I call rationality is a superset of instrumental. I have been arguing that instrumental rationality, when pursued sufficiently bleeds into other forms.
So, just to echo that back to you… we have two things, A and B.
On your account, “rationality” refers to A, which is a superset of B.
We posit that on wedrifid’s account, “rationality” refers to B and does not refer to A.
Yes?
If so, I don’t see how that changes my initial point.
When wedrifid says X is true of rationality, on your account he’s asserting X(B) -- that is, that X is true of B. Replying that NOT X(A) is nonresponsive (though might be a useful step along the way to deriving NOT X(B) ), and phrasing NOT X(A) as “no, X is not true of rationality” just causes confusion.
It refers to part of A, since it is a subset of A.
It would be if A and B were disjoint. But they are not. They are in a superset-subset relation. My arguments is that an entity running on narrowly construed, instrumental rationality will, if it self improves, have to move into wider kinds. ie,that putting labels on different parts of the territoy is not sufficient to prove orthogonality.