Is it because you think people derive much less fun from it than they do from eating meat? Or because you see some qualitative distinction between the two?
Is it because you think people derive much less fun from it than they do from eating meat?
I was actually thinking of “fun” in a narrower sense (I was going to say “the hell of it” instead, and I’m not sure why I changed my mind); so I guess that
you see some qualitative distinction between the two
is kind-of right, even though, as someone said, a qualitative difference is just a sufficiently large quantitative difference (which translates to LWese as “SPECKS is worse than TORTURE”). By using “Fun” is a more general sense (note the capital F)… [thinks about it] yes, they derive much less Fun from the former than from the latter per animal killed, but I don’t think that one bug should count for as much as one cow, so… [thinks a little more about it] I dunno whether people derive that much less Fun from the former than from the latter per unit ‘moral value’.
(Another difference beside levels of Fun is that, as Robin Hanson points out (though I disagree with pretty much everything else in that essay), is that the livestock killed for food are usually animals that if you hadn’t been going to kill them for food would have never existed in the first place. This doesn’t apply to game, and indeed I consider hunting to be more similar to killing animals for the hell of it than to killing animals for food, even if you do eat them.)
By using “Fun” is a more general sense (note the capital F)… [thinks about it] yes, they derive much less Fun from the former than from the latter per animal killed, but I don’t think that one bug should count for as much as one cow, so… [thinks a little more about it] I dunno whether people derive that much less Fun from the former than from the latter per unit ‘moral value’.
Hmm. Have you by any chance considered becoming a vegetarian yourself? Because someone eating traditional vegetarian fare (or synthetic meat-substitutes like Quorn, for that matter) definitely derives more Fun per unit moral value.
Have you tried it? It might be less hassle than you think. The biggest complaint most people have when they try vegetarianism for the first time is malnutrition; if you avoid that...
how about not torturing and killing animals food? Sure, most people do it, but most people are crazy.
Yes, I know. That would be me calling you crazy.
EDIT: In fact, since most people value mammalian (and bird, and fish, to a somewhat lower extent) pain/life higher than bug pain/life … vegetarianism should be more important than not torturing bugs. Unless you meant from a psychological health perspective? Since people aren’t taking pleasure in the torture/death itself?
Unless you meant from a psychological health perspective? Since people aren’t taking pleasure in the torture/death itself?
Yes, the fact that most people don’t usually kill the animals with their hands but pay someone else to do so does affect my gut reactions (cf “Near vs Far”) -- but I think that’s a bug, not a feature.
It’s easier to ignore/rationalize it if you can’t see it, I think—I’ve heard stories of children growing up on farms who turned to vegetarianism when they learned where Fluffy went—so I suppose from a Virtue Ethics point of view it suggests they’re less likely to be a Bad Person.
I have much less of a problem with that (I eat meat myself, once in a while) than with torturing and killing animals for fun.
Is it because you think people derive much less fun from it than they do from eating meat? Or because you see some qualitative distinction between the two?
I was actually thinking of “fun” in a narrower sense (I was going to say “the hell of it” instead, and I’m not sure why I changed my mind); so I guess that
is kind-of right, even though, as someone said, a qualitative difference is just a sufficiently large quantitative difference (which translates to LWese as “SPECKS is worse than TORTURE”). By using “Fun” is a more general sense (note the capital F)… [thinks about it] yes, they derive much less Fun from the former than from the latter per animal killed, but I don’t think that one bug should count for as much as one cow, so… [thinks a little more about it] I dunno whether people derive that much less Fun from the former than from the latter per unit ‘moral value’.
(Another difference beside levels of Fun is that, as Robin Hanson points out (though I disagree with pretty much everything else in that essay), is that the livestock killed for food are usually animals that if you hadn’t been going to kill them for food would have never existed in the first place. This doesn’t apply to game, and indeed I consider hunting to be more similar to killing animals for the hell of it than to killing animals for food, even if you do eat them.)
Hmm. Have you by any chance considered becoming a vegetarian yourself? Because someone eating traditional vegetarian fare (or synthetic meat-substitutes like Quorn, for that matter) definitely derives more Fun per unit moral value.
For some value of “considered”, I have. But I’m still not sure that of switching from flexitarianism to full vegetarianism would be worth the hassle.
Have you tried it? It might be less hassle than you think. The biggest complaint most people have when they try vegetarianism for the first time is malnutrition; if you avoid that...
Yes, I know. That would be me calling you crazy.
EDIT: In fact, since most people value mammalian (and bird, and fish, to a somewhat lower extent) pain/life higher than bug pain/life … vegetarianism should be more important than not torturing bugs. Unless you meant from a psychological health perspective? Since people aren’t taking pleasure in the torture/death itself?
Yes, the fact that most people don’t usually kill the animals with their hands but pay someone else to do so does affect my gut reactions (cf “Near vs Far”) -- but I think that’s a bug, not a feature.
It’s easier to ignore/rationalize it if you can’t see it, I think—I’ve heard stories of children growing up on farms who turned to vegetarianism when they learned where Fluffy went—so I suppose from a Virtue Ethics point of view it suggests they’re less likely to be a Bad Person.
In other words, yes, that’s a known bug.