Otherwise, we’d want to specially encourage black parents to adopt white babies instead of conceiving.
Do you know of a way where something like this could be practically done and be successful? If so, then we might discuss the pros and cons of such a scheme.
If you don’t know any such way, then this is a mere distraction and diversion at best—or worse yet, an attempt to use the taboo topics of racial politics in an attempt to mind-kill.
Do you know of a way where something like this could be practically done and be successful?
This is a moral question. It might be the case that we don’t have any practical ways of convincing people that death is bad, but that doesn’t mean that death isn’t bad.
If you don’t know any such way, then this is a mere distraction and diversion at best—or worse yet, an attempt to use the taboo topics of racial politics in an attempt to mind-kill.
Silas Barta introduced an anology between the deaf case and the hearing case. Atorm responded with a potential disanalogy, and I responded to him by saying that the disanalogy he provided didn’t straightforwardly work. Do you seriously think I’m trying to “mind-kill” anything? I feel you’re being unfair.
I don’t see a question mark anywhere in your comment. What is this moral question? “Why don’t we encourage black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?” “How is this different from encouraging black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?”
Make exact what this moral question is for me—but let me warn you that your analogy is currently much more likely to convince me that we should discourage black people of conceiving, than that deaf people have the moral right to force their children to remain deaf even if there’s a cheap safe method to restore said hearing.
So it’s bad for deaf people to impair their children’s hearing abilities, because all else being equal, hearing people can do more. By the same token, is it also bad for us to create black rather than white children, since “all else being equal,” discrimination allows white people to do more?
More generally, how do we figure out what to hold fixed—that is, what precisely the “else” is to hold “equal”—when comparing the worthiness of two lives?
By the same token, is it also bad for us to create black rather than white children,
“Us”? I’ve not created any black children, and most black people don’t have the capacity to create white children. And child-creation hasn’t been collectivized yet, it’s still an individual process.
If someone deliberately created a child with the explicit desire of having it be socially disadvantaged enough that they’d need to partake in the culture its parents belong to, instead of having more options available, that’d be evil.
More generally, how do we figure out what to hold fixed—that is, what precisely the “else” is to hold “equal”—when comparing the worthiness of two lives?
What does worthiness have to do with anything? This is about allowing children to hear, not about who is “worth” what. About quality of life, not about justice.
“Us”? I’ve not created any black children, and most black people don’t have the capacity to create white children. And child-creation hasn’t been collectivized yet, it’s still an individual process.
I think you’re missing the point. Please substitute the word “you” with whoever would be faced with such a situation (a black couple deciding whether or not to conceive of a black baby, a deaf couple deciding whether or not to conceive of a deaf baby, etc.).
What does worthiness have to do with anything? This is about allowing children to hear, not about who is “worth” what. About quality of life, not about justice.
I am using “worthiness” to refer to an informal measure of how much we should actualize certain lives relative to others, which includes considerations like quality of life. Maybe “choiceworthiness” would’ve been a better word.
a black couple deciding whether or not to conceive of a black baby
You mean a black couple that were given the choice to conceive a black baby or a white baby, and choosing “black” instead of “white”?
I guess that depends on their motivations for this choice, and whether it’s for the perceived benefit of the child or the perceived disadvantage of the child. If they perceived blackness as an inherent disability on the level of deafness, that’d be wrong, yes.
edit to explain: I slightly edited the post shortly after I posted it, which explains the small discrepancy before the current text of the comment, and the quoted text in the response to it.
I guess that depends on their motivations for this choice, and whether it’s for the perceived benefit of the child or the perceived benefit of their own selves, or their culture. If they perceived blackness as an inherent disability on the level of deafness, that’d be wrong, yes.
They believe that a black child will face certain social difficulties that a white child wouldn’t, but that he’d nevertheless lead a happy, flourishing life and love his culture and skin color, and moreover that the added diversity would be a net good for humanity.
but that he’d nevertheless lead a happy, flourishing life and love his culture and skin color and moreover that the added diversity would be a net good for humanity.
Are we still discussing this as an analogy with deaf people? Because I don’t think that most deaf people love their deafness, and though I like diversity of skin colors (and genders, and hair colors, and eye colors) I don’t believe that the existence of deafness or of blindness or of leprosy or of AIDS is a net good for humanity.
Because I don’t think that most deaf people love their deafness
I honestly can’t cite any statistics, but there are many, many, many congenitally deaf people who view their condition as a fundamental part of who they are and don’t want it to change. Maybe that attitude is pathological or something, but there it is.
I don’t believe that the existence of deafness or of blindness or of leprosy or of AIDS is a net good for humanity.
I think the existence of deaf people who want to be deaf is arguably a net good for humanity. Deaf culture is as real as black culture. Few people with AIDS or leprosy are glad they have it, however.
I honestly can’t cite any statistics, but there are many, many, many congenitally deaf people who view their condition as a fundamental part of who they are and don’t want it to change.
Doesn’t it tell you something if it’s only people who are congenitally deaf and thus have never experienced hearing who are the only ones that don’t want to experience it?
I think the existence of deaf people who want to be deaf is arguably a net good for humanity.
How?
Deaf culture is as real as black culture.
You keep using the word “culture” as if it’s supposed to drive away all my objections. Fine it’s real—how does that show it to be good that it exists?
There are lots of cultures that I wish had never existed—and when they exist I wish they were eradicated. Female-genital-mutilation cultures, because I wish there was no female genital mutilation. Aztec human-sacrificing culture, because I want there not to be any human sacrificing. Deaf culture, because I don’t want there to be any deafness.
Do you know of a way where something like this could be practically done and be successful? If so, then we might discuss the pros and cons of such a scheme.
If you don’t know any such way, then this is a mere distraction and diversion at best—or worse yet, an attempt to use the taboo topics of racial politics in an attempt to mind-kill.
This is a moral question. It might be the case that we don’t have any practical ways of convincing people that death is bad, but that doesn’t mean that death isn’t bad.
Silas Barta introduced an anology between the deaf case and the hearing case. Atorm responded with a potential disanalogy, and I responded to him by saying that the disanalogy he provided didn’t straightforwardly work. Do you seriously think I’m trying to “mind-kill” anything? I feel you’re being unfair.
I don’t see a question mark anywhere in your comment. What is this moral question? “Why don’t we encourage black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?” “How is this different from encouraging black people of adopting white children instead of conceiving?”
Make exact what this moral question is for me—but let me warn you that your analogy is currently much more likely to convince me that we should discourage black people of conceiving, than that deaf people have the moral right to force their children to remain deaf even if there’s a cheap safe method to restore said hearing.
So it’s bad for deaf people to impair their children’s hearing abilities, because all else being equal, hearing people can do more. By the same token, is it also bad for us to create black rather than white children, since “all else being equal,” discrimination allows white people to do more?
More generally, how do we figure out what to hold fixed—that is, what precisely the “else” is to hold “equal”—when comparing the worthiness of two lives?
“Us”? I’ve not created any black children, and most black people don’t have the capacity to create white children. And child-creation hasn’t been collectivized yet, it’s still an individual process.
If someone deliberately created a child with the explicit desire of having it be socially disadvantaged enough that they’d need to partake in the culture its parents belong to, instead of having more options available, that’d be evil.
What does worthiness have to do with anything? This is about allowing children to hear, not about who is “worth” what. About quality of life, not about justice.
I think you’re missing the point. Please substitute the word “you” with whoever would be faced with such a situation (a black couple deciding whether or not to conceive of a black baby, a deaf couple deciding whether or not to conceive of a deaf baby, etc.).
I am using “worthiness” to refer to an informal measure of how much we should actualize certain lives relative to others, which includes considerations like quality of life. Maybe “choiceworthiness” would’ve been a better word.
You mean a black couple that were given the choice to conceive a black baby or a white baby, and choosing “black” instead of “white”?
I guess that depends on their motivations for this choice, and whether it’s for the perceived benefit of the child or the perceived disadvantage of the child. If they perceived blackness as an inherent disability on the level of deafness, that’d be wrong, yes.
edit to explain: I slightly edited the post shortly after I posted it, which explains the small discrepancy before the current text of the comment, and the quoted text in the response to it.
They believe that a black child will face certain social difficulties that a white child wouldn’t, but that he’d nevertheless lead a happy, flourishing life and love his culture and skin color, and moreover that the added diversity would be a net good for humanity.
Are we still discussing this as an analogy with deaf people? Because I don’t think that most deaf people love their deafness, and though I like diversity of skin colors (and genders, and hair colors, and eye colors) I don’t believe that the existence of deafness or of blindness or of leprosy or of AIDS is a net good for humanity.
I honestly can’t cite any statistics, but there are many, many, many congenitally deaf people who view their condition as a fundamental part of who they are and don’t want it to change. Maybe that attitude is pathological or something, but there it is.
I think the existence of deaf people who want to be deaf is arguably a net good for humanity. Deaf culture is as real as black culture. Few people with AIDS or leprosy are glad they have it, however.
Doesn’t it tell you something if it’s only people who are congenitally deaf and thus have never experienced hearing who are the only ones that don’t want to experience it?
How?
You keep using the word “culture” as if it’s supposed to drive away all my objections. Fine it’s real—how does that show it to be good that it exists?
There are lots of cultures that I wish had never existed—and when they exist I wish they were eradicated. Female-genital-mutilation cultures, because I wish there was no female genital mutilation. Aztec human-sacrificing culture, because I want there not to be any human sacrificing. Deaf culture, because I don’t want there to be any deafness.