I think that when you say “if those things are subjective, the same problem re-applies” you are either arguing in a circle, or claiming something that’s just false.
Suppose X is a moral nonrealist (but not a nihilist: he does have moral values, he just doesn’t think they’re built into the structure of the universe somehow), and he’s doing something that actually isn’t compatible with his moral values but he hasn’t noticed. Crudely simple toy example for clarity: he’s torturing kittens because he’s a utilitarian and enjoys torturing kittens, but he somehow hasn’t considered the kittens’ suffering at all in his moral reckoning. Y (who, let’s suppose, is also a moral nonrealist, though it doesn’t particularly matter) points out that the kittens are suffering terribly. X thinks about it for a while and agrees that indeed his values say he shouldn’t torture kittens, and reluctantly stops doing it.
This seems to me a perfectly satisfactory way for things to go, and in particular it is no less satisfactory than if X is a moral realist who believes that hedonistic utilitarianism is an objective truth and stops torturing kittens because Y convinces him that the objective truth of hedonistic utilitarianism implies the objective truth that one shouldn’t torture kittens, rather than “merely” that his own acceptance of hedonistic utilitarianism implies that he shouldn’t torture kittens.
“Oh, but instead of being convinced X could just say: meh, maybe you’re right but who cares? And then Y will have no good arguments.” Sure. But that’s an argument not against moral nonrealism but against moral nihilism: against not actually having any moral values of any sort at all.
“Oh, sure, X may be convinced, but that doesn’t count because it wasn’t a realist argument. Only realist arguments count.” Well, then your argument is perfectly circular: nonrealism is bad because nonrealists can’t make realist arguments. And, sure, I will gladly concede that if you take it as axiomatic that nonrealism is bad then you can conclude that nonrealism is bad, but so what?
No, my real objection is not that there are no good realist arguments. I’m not sure quite what you mean by that phrase, though.
If you mean arguments that start from only nonmoral premises and deduce moral truths then as it happens I don’t believe there are any; if there are then indeed moral realism is correct; but, also, if there are then they should have as much force for an intelligent and openminded nonrealist (who will, on understanding the arguments, stop being a nonrealist) as for a realist.
If you mean arguments that assume realism but not anything more specific then I rather doubt that that assumption buys you anything, though I’m willing to be shown the error of my ways. At any rate, I can’t see how that assumption is ever going to be any use in, say, arguing that X shouldn’t be torturing kittens.
If you mean arguments that assume some specific sort of realism (e.g., that every moral claim in the New Testament is true, or that the best thing to do is whatever gives the greatest expected excess of pleasure over pain) then (1) these will have no more force for a realist who doesn’t accept that particular kind of realism than for a nonrealist and (2) they will have as much force for a nonrealist who embraces the same moral system (not very common for divine-command theories, I guess, but there are definitely nonrealist utilitarians).
Again: I would like to see a concrete example of how this is supposed to work. You say “any realist argument” but it seems to me that that’s obviously wrong for the reason I’ve already given above: “you shouldn’t torture kittens because hedonistic utilitarianism is objectively right and torturing kittens produces net excess suffering” is a realist argument, but it is exactly paralleled by “you shouldn’t torture kittens because you are a hedonistic utilitarian, and torturing kittens produces net excess suffering” which is a perfectly respectable argument to make to a nonrealist hedonistic utilitarian.
Of course I agree that I can’t be completely sure that there are no good realist arguments (whatever exactly you mean by that), or indeed of anything else. If a genuinely strong argument for moral realism comes along, I hope I’ll see its merits and be convinced. I’m not sure what I’ve said to make you think otherwise.
It seems to me that your last paragraph amounts to a wholehearted embrace of moral nonrealism. If moral realism versus nonrealism is something we are constructing, something we could choose to be one way or the other according to what gives the better outcomes—why, then, in fact moral realism is false. (Because if it is true, then we don’t have the freedom to choose to believe something else in pursuit of better outcomes, at least not if we first and foremost want our beliefs to be true rather than false.)
I think that when you say “if those things are subjective, the same problem re-applies” you are either arguing in a circle, or claiming something that’s just false.
Suppose X is a moral nonrealist (but not a nihilist: he does have moral values, he just doesn’t think they’re built into the structure of the universe somehow), and he’s doing something that actually isn’t compatible with his moral values but he hasn’t noticed. Crudely simple toy example for clarity: he’s torturing kittens because he’s a utilitarian and enjoys torturing kittens, but he somehow hasn’t considered the kittens’ suffering at all in his moral reckoning. Y (who, let’s suppose, is also a moral nonrealist, though it doesn’t particularly matter) points out that the kittens are suffering terribly. X thinks about it for a while and agrees that indeed his values say he shouldn’t torture kittens, and reluctantly stops doing it.
This seems to me a perfectly satisfactory way for things to go, and in particular it is no less satisfactory than if X is a moral realist who believes that hedonistic utilitarianism is an objective truth and stops torturing kittens because Y convinces him that the objective truth of hedonistic utilitarianism implies the objective truth that one shouldn’t torture kittens, rather than “merely” that his own acceptance of hedonistic utilitarianism implies that he shouldn’t torture kittens.
“Oh, but instead of being convinced X could just say: meh, maybe you’re right but who cares? And then Y will have no good arguments.” Sure. But that’s an argument not against moral nonrealism but against moral nihilism: against not actually having any moral values of any sort at all.
“Oh, sure, X may be convinced, but that doesn’t count because it wasn’t a realist argument. Only realist arguments count.” Well, then your argument is perfectly circular: nonrealism is bad because nonrealists can’t make realist arguments. And, sure, I will gladly concede that if you take it as axiomatic that nonrealism is bad then you can conclude that nonrealism is bad, but so what?
No, my real objection is not that there are no good realist arguments. I’m not sure quite what you mean by that phrase, though.
If you mean arguments that start from only nonmoral premises and deduce moral truths then as it happens I don’t believe there are any; if there are then indeed moral realism is correct; but, also, if there are then they should have as much force for an intelligent and openminded nonrealist (who will, on understanding the arguments, stop being a nonrealist) as for a realist.
If you mean arguments that assume realism but not anything more specific then I rather doubt that that assumption buys you anything, though I’m willing to be shown the error of my ways. At any rate, I can’t see how that assumption is ever going to be any use in, say, arguing that X shouldn’t be torturing kittens.
If you mean arguments that assume some specific sort of realism (e.g., that every moral claim in the New Testament is true, or that the best thing to do is whatever gives the greatest expected excess of pleasure over pain) then (1) these will have no more force for a realist who doesn’t accept that particular kind of realism than for a nonrealist and (2) they will have as much force for a nonrealist who embraces the same moral system (not very common for divine-command theories, I guess, but there are definitely nonrealist utilitarians).
Again: I would like to see a concrete example of how this is supposed to work. You say “any realist argument” but it seems to me that that’s obviously wrong for the reason I’ve already given above: “you shouldn’t torture kittens because hedonistic utilitarianism is objectively right and torturing kittens produces net excess suffering” is a realist argument, but it is exactly paralleled by “you shouldn’t torture kittens because you are a hedonistic utilitarian, and torturing kittens produces net excess suffering” which is a perfectly respectable argument to make to a nonrealist hedonistic utilitarian.
Of course I agree that I can’t be completely sure that there are no good realist arguments (whatever exactly you mean by that), or indeed of anything else. If a genuinely strong argument for moral realism comes along, I hope I’ll see its merits and be convinced. I’m not sure what I’ve said to make you think otherwise.
It seems to me that your last paragraph amounts to a wholehearted embrace of moral nonrealism. If moral realism versus nonrealism is something we are constructing, something we could choose to be one way or the other according to what gives the better outcomes—why, then, in fact moral realism is false. (Because if it is true, then we don’t have the freedom to choose to believe something else in pursuit of better outcomes, at least not if we first and foremost want our beliefs to be true rather than false.)