So, I finally figured out the major difference in framing between my religious framing and how Zvi is framing it. The key difference seems to be in level 3. Baudrillard explains this stage as “masking the absence of a profound reality” where “signs and images claim to represent something real, but no representation is taking place and arbitrary images are merely suggested as things which they have no relationship to”.
In my religious framing (see Raemon’s comment), I suggest that level 3 is occurs when faith in a system fades, but some kind of residual force traps people into pretending to still believe. This means that the lie is not longer that you are a true believer, but the very existence of a community of true beleivers. The way Zvi frames it, as far as I can tell, is in terms of people still truly identifying with the symbolism, but defending/presenting it as though it were an literal belief. Here the shift is that instead of keeping track of the truth in order to lie about it, you have shifted to a world of symbolic meaning.
This then quite naturally shapes how we interpret level 4. For both of us level 4 is when it becomes a purely social game, but for me it is because the residual force maintaining the system disappears, while for Zvi it is because people start manipulating the system of authentic group identification.
Update:
I have newer interpretation which I believe to be truer to Baudrillard’s description of the third stage as an “Order of Sorcery”. I now think that stage two is relatively standard lies, misrepresentations or incomplete truths, while stage three consists of layer upon layer of distortion and ideology. This results in such a broken epistemology or ontology that a true understanding of the world becomes almost impossible.
So, I finally figured out the major difference in framing between my religious framing and how Zvi is framing it. The key difference seems to be in level 3. Baudrillard explains this stage as “masking the absence of a profound reality” where “signs and images claim to represent something real, but no representation is taking place and arbitrary images are merely suggested as things which they have no relationship to”.
In my religious framing (see Raemon’s comment), I suggest that level 3 is occurs when faith in a system fades, but some kind of residual force traps people into pretending to still believe. This means that the lie is not longer that you are a true believer, but the very existence of a community of true beleivers. The way Zvi frames it, as far as I can tell, is in terms of people still truly identifying with the symbolism, but defending/presenting it as though it were an literal belief. Here the shift is that instead of keeping track of the truth in order to lie about it, you have shifted to a world of symbolic meaning.
This then quite naturally shapes how we interpret level 4. For both of us level 4 is when it becomes a purely social game, but for me it is because the residual force maintaining the system disappears, while for Zvi it is because people start manipulating the system of authentic group identification.
Update:
I have newer interpretation which I believe to be truer to Baudrillard’s description of the third stage as an “Order of Sorcery”. I now think that stage two is relatively standard lies, misrepresentations or incomplete truths, while stage three consists of layer upon layer of distortion and ideology. This results in such a broken epistemology or ontology that a true understanding of the world becomes almost impossible.