I think Derbyshire is partly right, partly silly, and would have a lot less reason to be nervous around black people if he learned “how to act”, as those scary strange black folks say. If you want my opinion on any of his itemized points, feel free to ask, but responding to them all would be a novel—and I didn’t disagree with them all. And I think his question is weak-to-moderate evidence for false-and-nasty racism.
But Derbyshire doesn’t really work as a general signal flag for racism. Racial essentialism is one obvious answer: the idea that races are essential categories like species. Racism is also correlated with predictable, relatively negative across-the-board outcomes based on race. Racism is realtors directing black people to poor black neighborhoods and white people to relatively affluent neighborhoods. Racism is calling for the prohibition of any attention to racial disparities while pretending that you and everybody else can pretend to be “colorblind.”
Some of these are stronger indicators than others, and there are a lot more I could list. The “colorblind” folks aren’t always nasty—see e.g. Morgan Freeman before he saw some of the reactions to Obama’s election—but they are wrong.
I think Derbyshire is partly right, partly silly, and would have a lot less reason to be nervous around black people if he learned “how to act”, as those scary strange black folks say.
What do you mean by “how to act”? If you mean it’s necessary to adopt a different set of behaviors when around blacks, this is precisely Derbyshire’s point.
But Derbyshire doesn’t really work as a general signal flag for racism. Racial essentialism is one obvious answer: the idea that races are essential categories like species.
What do you mean by “essentialism”? After all the distinction between species isn’t always clear either.
The “colorblind” folks aren’t always nasty (..) but they are wrong.
What specific statements of theirs do you believe to be wrong.
If you mean it’s necessary to adopt a different set of behaviors when around blacks, this is precisely Derbyshire’s point.
There’s a difference between “change of behavior” and “RUN!” A party full of black people will tend to have a different atmosphere than a party full of white people, just like parties with different mixes of age groups and genders will have a different atmosphere. Normal, healthy people can pick up on social cues. Black people are used to white people being scared of them. They have a good chance of noticing, and yes, they’ll respond to that. Probably negatively. If you get nervous around large groups of black strangers and you can’t help it, I would advise avoidance. There are situations where anybody—comfortable or not—should be “sketched out” and make their exit, but the indicator isn’t “oh gee lots of black dudes here.” A better one would be, “oh gee that’s a lot of neck tattoos.”
After all the distinction between species isn’t always clear either.
If you’re a good Darwinian, sure. But if you think that black people are an intermediate between humans and chimpanzees, or you believe that black people are the cursed “sons of Ham”, or...
What specific statements of theirs do you believe to be wrong.
Here’s Morgan Freeman before and Morgan Freeman after. He’s dumb in both videos, but suddenly he sees this racist “underline.” It’s pretty hard to miss a racist “underline” in lots of policies and statements past and present, from “states’ rights” to disparity in crack-cocaine sentencing to criminalization of loitering to the war on drugs to...
Recognizing race and making associations based on race is System 1. It doesn’t go away. White people will still notice that black people are black, and black people will still notice that white people are white.
There’s a difference between “change of behavior” and “RUN!”
So, what specific behaviors did you have in mind?
It’s pretty hard to miss a racist “underline” in lots of policies and statements past and present, from “states’ rights” to disparity in crack-cocaine sentencing to criminalization of loitering to the war on drugs to...
Yes, if you insist of seeing X in everything, it’s not hard to miss the X “underline” in everything, whether X is racism, Illuminati influence, or the hand of Satan.
Recognizing race and making associations based on race is System 1.
In particular recognizing difference in behavior between people of different races (even if one isn’t willing to consciously admit the difference for fear of being “racist”) is system 1.
It doesn’t go away. White people will still notice that black people are black, and black people will still notice that white people are white.
I thought you would be able to interpret that as “all of it” and be able to find the obvious reasons why, but ok.
So, what specific behaviors did you have in mind?
I behave differently around groups of young men like myself, at company meetings, when visiting a synagogue, at family gatherings, with friends, at dinner with a family of asian immigrants, at bars, with strangers...
I will behave differently around feminists and strict conservatives. I will behave differently with a group of black strangers. I use background knowledge and empathy to make my adjustments, usually automatically—the automatic process only being sufficiently reliable in relatively familiar situations. An example: if at any point you become tempted to defend “race realism” or talk about how not racist you are, you’re probably doing it wrong. If you are at any point accused of racism, you’re probably doing something wrong, but even if you weren’t, don’t argue. Black people don’t usually like white strangers appointing themselves the local expert on white-on-black racism. If you get as nervous as Derbyshire, it might be best to follow his advice and avoid such situations. If you’re new to it, be prepared to make mistakes however well-intentioned you are. The key is owning up to them when you make them. Most of all, remember that the point of your being there is to share in some common activity with your fellow human beings.
A note from personal experience: like most groups of young men, young black men like ribbing each other. If you can’t keep your cool, you’re in for a hard time. 99% of the soured situations I’ve seen have run as follows: me and other white dude and some black guys are hanging out, having a good time, trading jokes, and killing brain cells. Black guy makes a joke at other white dude’s expense, and the other white dude can’t keep chill. I swear you can see the bullseye appearing on his forehead as soon as he starts. Everybody notices instantly, and it’s all downhill from there.
My advice is almost entirely commonsensical, and your experience may vary.
Yes, if you insist of seeing X in everything, it’s not hard to miss the X “underline” in everything, whether X is racism, Illuminati influence, or the hand of Satan.
Yeah, seeing racism in US politics is like seeing Illuminati. I don’t think I can improve this one for you.
In particular recognizing difference in behavior between people of different races (even if one isn’t willing to consciously admit the difference for fear of being “racist”) is system 1.
It is system 1. There are behavioral differences. I don’t think we’re as panic-stricken as you think we are.
Somehow this effect didn’t seem to stop Asians.
Because the stereotypical Asian is a subhuman, primitive brute incapable of self-control, especially around white women. Also, descendant of slaves.
Here’s a fun exercise. Try going to your nearest black underclass neighborhood, preferably at night. See how well this advice serves you.
My advice implied this where… I wonder… Hate to have to say it, but I wouldn’t advise doing that. I wonder if in some alternate universe where I, a black man, was explaining to a black Eugine Nier about adjustments in behavior he should consider around groups of unfamiliar white people, whether that black Eugine Nier would suggest I try it out in rural West Virginia.
This seems like a total non sequitur.
From your previous comment and others you’ve made in this thread, you seem to think that talking about any racial distinctions is taboo and verboten, especially in academic circles. That just isn’t true.
A century ago this was much closer to the standard stereotype.
We could talk about that, just like we tend to have to talk about new topics whenever you tire of the original ones. I could pick a new thing to talk about too, like problems with “model minority” stereotypes. Or I can get closer to the original, and ask for what relevant similarities you see between Asian people and black people—apart from their being minorities—that makes you seriously wonder “why black people haven’t done it.”
My advice implied this where… I wonder… Hate to have to say it, but I wouldn’t advise doing that. I wonder if in some alternate universe where I, a black man, was explaining to a black Eugine Nier about adjustments in behavior he should consider around groups of unfamiliar white people, whether that black Eugine Nier would suggest I try it out in rural West Virginia.
Notice how precisely you had to specify the place and location (and even then I’m not convinced the situation would be as dangerous), whereas I merely pointed you to the neighborhoods where a majority of blacks live.
We could talk about that, just like we tend to have to talk about new topics whenever you tire of the original ones. I could pick a new thing to talk about too, like problems with “model minority” stereotypes. Or I can get closer to the original, and ask for what relevant similarities you see between Asian people and black people—apart from their being minorities—that makes you seriously wonder “why black people haven’t done it.”
The fact that they faced discrimination and were considered subhuman, i.e., the thing I mentioned in the parent and you called a “new topic”.
Yeah, we’ve been at this for a few days now. I think I’ve humored you enough at this point.
If you want to get past raw assertions and have a more serious discussion about academic bias and race, try finding the relevant studies and reading the relevant history instead of giving us more of your armchair impressions. Also, lay off the right wing press. It obviously isn’t helping you. Also, don’t reflexively downvote comments from people you’re arguing with. Also, don’t ignore their questions and responses. Also, stop shifting topics instead of acknowledging a fair point.
I think Derbyshire is partly right, partly silly, and would have a lot less reason to be nervous around black people if he learned “how to act”, as those scary strange black folks say. If you want my opinion on any of his itemized points, feel free to ask, but responding to them all would be a novel—and I didn’t disagree with them all. And I think his question is weak-to-moderate evidence for false-and-nasty racism.
But Derbyshire doesn’t really work as a general signal flag for racism. Racial essentialism is one obvious answer: the idea that races are essential categories like species. Racism is also correlated with predictable, relatively negative across-the-board outcomes based on race. Racism is realtors directing black people to poor black neighborhoods and white people to relatively affluent neighborhoods. Racism is calling for the prohibition of any attention to racial disparities while pretending that you and everybody else can pretend to be “colorblind.”
Some of these are stronger indicators than others, and there are a lot more I could list. The “colorblind” folks aren’t always nasty—see e.g. Morgan Freeman before he saw some of the reactions to Obama’s election—but they are wrong.
What do you mean by “how to act”? If you mean it’s necessary to adopt a different set of behaviors when around blacks, this is precisely Derbyshire’s point.
What do you mean by “essentialism”? After all the distinction between species isn’t always clear either.
What specific statements of theirs do you believe to be wrong.
There’s a difference between “change of behavior” and “RUN!” A party full of black people will tend to have a different atmosphere than a party full of white people, just like parties with different mixes of age groups and genders will have a different atmosphere. Normal, healthy people can pick up on social cues. Black people are used to white people being scared of them. They have a good chance of noticing, and yes, they’ll respond to that. Probably negatively. If you get nervous around large groups of black strangers and you can’t help it, I would advise avoidance. There are situations where anybody—comfortable or not—should be “sketched out” and make their exit, but the indicator isn’t “oh gee lots of black dudes here.” A better one would be, “oh gee that’s a lot of neck tattoos.”
If you’re a good Darwinian, sure. But if you think that black people are an intermediate between humans and chimpanzees, or you believe that black people are the cursed “sons of Ham”, or...
Here’s Morgan Freeman before and Morgan Freeman after. He’s dumb in both videos, but suddenly he sees this racist “underline.” It’s pretty hard to miss a racist “underline” in lots of policies and statements past and present, from “states’ rights” to disparity in crack-cocaine sentencing to criminalization of loitering to the war on drugs to...
Recognizing race and making associations based on race is System 1. It doesn’t go away. White people will still notice that black people are black, and black people will still notice that white people are white.
I take the fundamental premise to be impossible.
So, what specific behaviors did you have in mind?
Yes, if you insist of seeing X in everything, it’s not hard to miss the X “underline” in everything, whether X is racism, Illuminati influence, or the hand of Satan.
In particular recognizing difference in behavior between people of different races (even if one isn’t willing to consciously admit the difference for fear of being “racist”) is system 1.
Somehow this effect didn’t seem to stop Asians.
I’m going to wait for you to try again on this one.
It would help if you said what you didn’t like about the parent.
I thought you would be able to interpret that as “all of it” and be able to find the obvious reasons why, but ok.
I behave differently around groups of young men like myself, at company meetings, when visiting a synagogue, at family gatherings, with friends, at dinner with a family of asian immigrants, at bars, with strangers...
I will behave differently around feminists and strict conservatives. I will behave differently with a group of black strangers. I use background knowledge and empathy to make my adjustments, usually automatically—the automatic process only being sufficiently reliable in relatively familiar situations. An example: if at any point you become tempted to defend “race realism” or talk about how not racist you are, you’re probably doing it wrong. If you are at any point accused of racism, you’re probably doing something wrong, but even if you weren’t, don’t argue. Black people don’t usually like white strangers appointing themselves the local expert on white-on-black racism. If you get as nervous as Derbyshire, it might be best to follow his advice and avoid such situations. If you’re new to it, be prepared to make mistakes however well-intentioned you are. The key is owning up to them when you make them. Most of all, remember that the point of your being there is to share in some common activity with your fellow human beings.
A note from personal experience: like most groups of young men, young black men like ribbing each other. If you can’t keep your cool, you’re in for a hard time. 99% of the soured situations I’ve seen have run as follows: me and other white dude and some black guys are hanging out, having a good time, trading jokes, and killing brain cells. Black guy makes a joke at other white dude’s expense, and the other white dude can’t keep chill. I swear you can see the bullseye appearing on his forehead as soon as he starts. Everybody notices instantly, and it’s all downhill from there.
My advice is almost entirely commonsensical, and your experience may vary.
Yeah, seeing racism in US politics is like seeing Illuminati. I don’t think I can improve this one for you.
It is system 1. There are behavioral differences. I don’t think we’re as panic-stricken as you think we are.
Because the stereotypical Asian is a subhuman, primitive brute incapable of self-control, especially around white women. Also, descendant of slaves.
Here’s a fun exercise. Try going to your nearest black underclass neighborhood, preferably at night. See how well this advice serves you.
This seems like a total non sequitur.
A century ago this was much closer to the standard stereotype.
My advice implied this where… I wonder… Hate to have to say it, but I wouldn’t advise doing that. I wonder if in some alternate universe where I, a black man, was explaining to a black Eugine Nier about adjustments in behavior he should consider around groups of unfamiliar white people, whether that black Eugine Nier would suggest I try it out in rural West Virginia.
From your previous comment and others you’ve made in this thread, you seem to think that talking about any racial distinctions is taboo and verboten, especially in academic circles. That just isn’t true.
We could talk about that, just like we tend to have to talk about new topics whenever you tire of the original ones. I could pick a new thing to talk about too, like problems with “model minority” stereotypes. Or I can get closer to the original, and ask for what relevant similarities you see between Asian people and black people—apart from their being minorities—that makes you seriously wonder “why black people haven’t done it.”
Notice how precisely you had to specify the place and location (and even then I’m not convinced the situation would be as dangerous), whereas I merely pointed you to the neighborhoods where a majority of blacks live.
The fact that they faced discrimination and were considered subhuman, i.e., the thing I mentioned in the parent and you called a “new topic”.
Yeah, we’ve been at this for a few days now. I think I’ve humored you enough at this point.
If you want to get past raw assertions and have a more serious discussion about academic bias and race, try finding the relevant studies and reading the relevant history instead of giving us more of your armchair impressions. Also, lay off the right wing press. It obviously isn’t helping you. Also, don’t reflexively downvote comments from people you’re arguing with. Also, don’t ignore their questions and responses. Also, stop shifting topics instead of acknowledging a fair point.