I got an offer of an in-person interview from a tech company on the left coast. They want to know my current salary and expected salary. Position is as a software engineer. Any ideas on the reasonable range? I checked Glassdoor and the numbers for the company in question seem to be 100k and a bit up. I suppose, actually, that this tells me what I need to know, but honestly it feels awfully audacious to ask for twice what I’m making at the moment. On the other hand I don’t want to anchor a discussion that may seriously affect my life for the next few years at too small a number. So, I’m seeking validation more than information. Always audacity?
Always ask as much as you can. Otherwise you are just donating the money to your boss. If you hate having too much money, consider donating to MIRI or CFAR or GiveWell instead. Or just send it to me. (Possible exception is if you work for a charity, in which case asking less than you could is a kind of donation.)
The five minutes of negotiating you salary are likely to have more impact on your future income than the following years of hard work. Imagine yourself a few years later, trying to get a 10% increase and hearing a lot of bullshit about how the economical situation is difficult (hint: it is always difficult), so you should all just work harder and maybe later, but no promises.
it feels awfully audacious to ask for twice what I’m making at the moment
I know. Been there, twice. (Felt like an idiot after realising that I worked for a quarter of my market price at the first company. Okay, that’s exaggerated, because my market price increased with the work experience. But it was probably half of the market price.)
The first time, I was completely inexperienced about negotiating. It went like: “So tell me how much you want.” “Uhm, you tell me how much you give people in my position.” “No, you tell me how much you want.” Etc. After a few rounds, the frustrated interviewer asked me: “Okey, so how much did you get in your previous job?” And at that moment as if a light flashed in my head and I realized the number I say now will be the number I will get, and it will likely stay the same for years, so I… lied. I told double of what I had. And the interviewer was like: “So would it be okay to give you the same salary for the beginning, and then after a few months we will increase it?” I tried hard to remain calm, and we signed the papers. (By the way, they lied about the increasing, too.) I felt like that was the best day of my life.
The next time I was already more audacious and I just asked twice of what I had in that previous company. The interviewer jumped a bit in their chair. I was like: “Is this a problem for your company?” “Well, it’s at the top of the range, but if you really have the skills… By the way, is this what you made at your previous job?” I said, calmly: “No, and that was one of the reasons I left.” (Of course the other reason was a desire to work with exactly the same technology the new company was using.) Then they gave me a test, I succeeded, and we signed the papers. (I expected the test, and crammed the whole textbook the previous day. It was just like learning for a university exam.)
It always feels good afterwards. And the more you practice it, the easier it gets. You can practice it at home in front of a mirror, if necessary. Repeat it a hundred times, and it will feel natural.
(By the way: human irrationality, halo effect, etc cetera… the more money they pay you, the more they respect you. You may feel that by asking less you are doing them a favor, and they will repay the favor somehow. Not gonna happen! It’s more like: if he is so cheap, he is probably not too smart.)
Asking for more than all the money is trivial. Don’t even get me started on how much someone who is good at math can ask for. This is obviously not a good strategy. There is an optimum amount to ask for. How do you find it?
There is an optimum amount to ask for. How do you find it?
By looking at the distribution of that industry / company’s wages for someone of your qualifications and asking for something on the high end. They will then either accept or try to barter you down. Either way, you will most likely end up with more than what you would have gotten otherwise.
In other words, exactly what Viliam_Bur said to begin with.
Well yes, but how much can I ask? :) At any rate I went for 125k, which seems to be in the upper third or so of what Glassdoor reports. Thanks for the encouragement.
When the first two companies will say that they would hire you if you asked a bit less, and you refuse, and the third company gives you as much as you asked, then you know you are working for a market salary. Until then you are probably too cheap.
Sorry, I am not from USA, so I am unable to give specific numbers. I guess you should ask for 140k now, and be willing to get down to 125k (prepare some excuse, such as “normally I would insist on 140k, but since this is the work I always wanted to have, and [insert all the benefits your interviewer mentioned], I’d say we have a deal”).
Don’t deliberately screw yourself over. Don’t accept less than the average for your position and either point blank refuse to give them negotiating leverage by telling them your current salary or lie.
Look up what Ramit Sethi has to say about salary negotiation. He really outlines the how things look from the other side and how asking for your 100k is not nearly as audacious as it seems.
You may feel better about being audacious if you do an explicit cost-of-living calculation given the rent and price differential. If you see that maintaining the same standard of living is going to cost you 80k, then 100k stops seeming like a huge number.
It’s also true that there is only epsilon chance of screwing yourself. Nobody is going to reject you because the expected salary number you suggested was too high; it makes no sense. You could suggest 150k and the only bad thing that will happen is you might only get offered 120k.
Always audacity! If you ask for a number that’s too high, they are extremely unlikely to withdraw the offer. Anecdotally, a very good friend of mine was just able to negotiate a 50% increase in his starting salary in a similar-sounding situation.
Rolf, you work in an industry where people are becoming millionaires and billionaires overnight. Maybe you won’t manage that, but no need to be embarrassed for raking it in.
Note that even though you don’t need to reveal your salary in negotiations, current salary often anchors negotiations in your next one as well as your current one, illogical though that may be. So the deal you make now has long-term implications. Also, in yet another of those biases they talk about here, a high salary may, within limits, make your bosses think you are a better worker who deserves a higher status.
I got an offer of an in-person interview from a tech company on the left coast. They want to know my current salary and expected salary. Position is as a software engineer. Any ideas on the reasonable range? I checked Glassdoor and the numbers for the company in question seem to be 100k and a bit up. I suppose, actually, that this tells me what I need to know, but honestly it feels awfully audacious to ask for twice what I’m making at the moment. On the other hand I don’t want to anchor a discussion that may seriously affect my life for the next few years at too small a number. So, I’m seeking validation more than information. Always audacity?
Always ask as much as you can. Otherwise you are just donating the money to your boss. If you hate having too much money, consider donating to MIRI or CFAR or GiveWell instead. Or just send it to me. (Possible exception is if you work for a charity, in which case asking less than you could is a kind of donation.)
The five minutes of negotiating you salary are likely to have more impact on your future income than the following years of hard work. Imagine yourself a few years later, trying to get a 10% increase and hearing a lot of bullshit about how the economical situation is difficult (hint: it is always difficult), so you should all just work harder and maybe later, but no promises.
I know. Been there, twice. (Felt like an idiot after realising that I worked for a quarter of my market price at the first company. Okay, that’s exaggerated, because my market price increased with the work experience. But it was probably half of the market price.)
The first time, I was completely inexperienced about negotiating. It went like: “So tell me how much you want.” “Uhm, you tell me how much you give people in my position.” “No, you tell me how much you want.” Etc. After a few rounds, the frustrated interviewer asked me: “Okey, so how much did you get in your previous job?” And at that moment as if a light flashed in my head and I realized the number I say now will be the number I will get, and it will likely stay the same for years, so I… lied. I told double of what I had. And the interviewer was like: “So would it be okay to give you the same salary for the beginning, and then after a few months we will increase it?” I tried hard to remain calm, and we signed the papers. (By the way, they lied about the increasing, too.) I felt like that was the best day of my life.
The next time I was already more audacious and I just asked twice of what I had in that previous company. The interviewer jumped a bit in their chair. I was like: “Is this a problem for your company?” “Well, it’s at the top of the range, but if you really have the skills… By the way, is this what you made at your previous job?” I said, calmly: “No, and that was one of the reasons I left.” (Of course the other reason was a desire to work with exactly the same technology the new company was using.) Then they gave me a test, I succeeded, and we signed the papers. (I expected the test, and crammed the whole textbook the previous day. It was just like learning for a university exam.)
It always feels good afterwards. And the more you practice it, the easier it gets. You can practice it at home in front of a mirror, if necessary. Repeat it a hundred times, and it will feel natural.
(By the way: human irrationality, halo effect, etc cetera… the more money they pay you, the more they respect you. You may feel that by asking less you are doing them a favor, and they will repay the favor somehow. Not gonna happen! It’s more like: if he is so cheap, he is probably not too smart.)
Asking for more than all the money is trivial. Don’t even get me started on how much someone who is good at math can ask for. This is obviously not a good strategy. There is an optimum amount to ask for. How do you find it?
By looking at the distribution of that industry / company’s wages for someone of your qualifications and asking for something on the high end. They will then either accept or try to barter you down. Either way, you will most likely end up with more than what you would have gotten otherwise.
In other words, exactly what Viliam_Bur said to begin with.
Well yes, but how much can I ask? :) At any rate I went for 125k, which seems to be in the upper third or so of what Glassdoor reports. Thanks for the encouragement.
When the first two companies will say that they would hire you if you asked a bit less, and you refuse, and the third company gives you as much as you asked, then you know you are working for a market salary. Until then you are probably too cheap.
Sorry, I am not from USA, so I am unable to give specific numbers. I guess you should ask for 140k now, and be willing to get down to 125k (prepare some excuse, such as “normally I would insist on 140k, but since this is the work I always wanted to have, and [insert all the benefits your interviewer mentioned], I’d say we have a deal”).
Don’t deliberately screw yourself over. Don’t accept less than the average for your position and either point blank refuse to give them negotiating leverage by telling them your current salary or lie.
For better, longer advice see ［Salary Negotiation for Software Engineers］(http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation)
I’m afraid I couldn’t quite bring myself to follow all the advice in your link, but at any rate I increased my number to 125k. So, it helped a bit. :)
Look up what Ramit Sethi has to say about salary negotiation. He really outlines the how things look from the other side and how asking for your 100k is not nearly as audacious as it seems.
You may feel better about being audacious if you do an explicit cost-of-living calculation given the rent and price differential. If you see that maintaining the same standard of living is going to cost you 80k, then 100k stops seeming like a huge number.
It’s also true that there is only epsilon chance of screwing yourself. Nobody is going to reject you because the expected salary number you suggested was too high; it makes no sense. You could suggest 150k and the only bad thing that will happen is you might only get offered 120k.
No doubt you are correct; anyway, it’s only a job interview. Other fish in the sea, if necessary.
Always audacity! If you ask for a number that’s too high, they are extremely unlikely to withdraw the offer. Anecdotally, a very good friend of mine was just able to negotiate a 50% increase in his starting salary in a similar-sounding situation.
Ok. I took a deep breath, closed my eyes, and said “125000”. Hope it wasn’t too low.
Rolf, you work in an industry where people are becoming millionaires and billionaires overnight. Maybe you won’t manage that, but no need to be embarrassed for raking it in.
Note that even though you don’t need to reveal your salary in negotiations, current salary often anchors negotiations in your next one as well as your current one, illogical though that may be. So the deal you make now has long-term implications. Also, in yet another of those biases they talk about here, a high salary may, within limits, make your bosses think you are a better worker who deserves a higher status.