I think you might perhaps want to be a bit more careful about your own epistemic status...
RAOW! Did I signal that I’m on the wrong “team” there? FWIW, Robin Hanson brought up the same thing here.
The IDers’ claim is not exactly “that there is a non-trivial chance that life on earth was designed”. It’s that there’s compelling evidence that life on earth actually was designed.
Yes, the probabilities are different, but critics of ID consistently, incessantly argue that ID and related concepts are not just wrong, but incoherent and totally outside the realm of science. Don’t you think it’s significant that Dawkins—without probably realizing it—just admitted that there’s a 1% chance of this incoherent, unscientific idea being true?
Although the IDers generally say that ID-as-such has nothing to say about the identity of the designer, it’s notable that …
Nope, not a good enough reason for refusing to address the case as presented without reference to the persons presenting it.
I would be interested to know if you have any evidence for the claim that when talking to creationists Dawkins denies the possibility that life on earth could have been designed (by some other entity with finite power and knowledge that arose evolutionarily, of course).
Well of course Dawkin’s doesn’t deny it when talking to Ben Stein ;-) But if you’re asking if there’s evidence Dawkins changes his claims when talking to creationists, well, sure, for one thing, he changes his claims to ”...” when talking to creationists by virtue of not debating them.
But as for the fundamental issue: all across YouTube and the blogosphere, anti-creationists (sorry, don’t know a better term to use, suggest a better one rather than criticize) were absolutely livid that Stein presented a Dawkins interview that he got under false pretenses and that this somehow makes the claims of the interviewees less significant. Now tell me, for purposes of ascertaining what Dawkins believes, why does it matter whether Dawkins made a statement in an interview with a creationist vs. in an interview “about” religion?
So that’s why I ask about the epistemological status of “I believe this, but not in a way that creationists are ever supposed to hear”.
The point is, when people like Dawkins so horribly fail at the use of probabilities, it makes it easier for people like me to be a devil’s advocate for creationists.
No, you said something I thought was obviously unreasonable. There’s a difference.
critics of ID consistently, incessantly argue that ID and related concepts are not just wrong, but incoherent and totally outside the realm of science.
Sorry, but if “related concepts” includes the possibility that life on earth might have been designed (really truly without any implication that the designer need be supernatural) then I don’t believe you.
(Two examples of such “related concepts”: In The God Delusion—notable among Dawkins’s works, of course, for its consistent open-mindedness towards religious ideas[1] -- Dawkins says, in so many words, (a) that it’s very likely that there are intelligent aliens whose powers we would readily classify as godlike, and (b) that if a genuine instance of “irreducible complexity” could be found, then indeed Darwinian evolution would be dead.)
Nope, not a good enough reason for refusing to address the case as presented without reference to the persons presenting it.
OK, so you don’t consider it a good enough reason. However, if Dawkins does—and it’s not hard to see why he might—it seems to me that your sneering at his “epistemologicical status” is un-called-for.
he changes his claims to ”...” when talking to creationists by virtue of not debating them.
Excuse me, but are you even slightly serious? (Perhaps I’ve made the mistake of responding seriously to what’s just 100% trolling, in which case I hereby apologize to anyone whose time I’ve wasted.) In what possible world is there any equivalence, as far as “epistemological status” goes, between (1) “Dawkins says one thing to one set of people and another incompatible thing to another set of people”—your earlier assertion—and (2) “Dawkins says one thing to one set of people and doesn’t talk to another set of people”?
all across YouTube [...] anti-creationists [...] were absolutely livid
What, please, does that have to do with Dawkins’s opinions, or practices, or attitudes, or honesty, or intellectual integrity?
for purposes of ascertaining what Dawkins believes, why does it matter whether he made a statement in an interview with a creationist vs. in an interview “about” religion?
I’m not aware that anyone has said it does. Would you care to make your argument a bit more explicit at this point?
when people like Dawkins so horribly fail at the use of probabilities
Er, is it just me or is this a complete change of subject?
it makes it easier for people like me to be a devil’s advocate for creationists.
Why should Dawkins, or anyone else, care how easy it is for someone to be a devil’s advocate for creationists? If what you actually mean is that it makes it easier for creationists to be advocates for creationists, then that would be more to the point, but it’s not quite clear to me what you’re now arguing. Earlier on, it looked like you were casting aspersions on Dawkins’s honesty or integrity or something; now it seems you’ve switched to commenting on his tactics.
Doesn’t that get me a little leeway on the tribalism?
Afraid not. It is my role (as Machiavelli’s advocate) to be as unreasonable in my interpretation of your position as I think I can get away with. ‘Devil’s Advocacy’ is seldom fully appreciated, even with warnings and it is (or would be) my role to encourage that. You can only appeal to Devil’s Advocacy so many times without appearing insecure, a defeat from which I would benefit far more than in merely proving you to be out-of-group.
No, it doesn’t matter if your arguments are good ones. It doesn’t matter if your contribution adds much needed rigour and balance to the discussion. It doesn’t matter if your efforts probing and challenging allows the in group to more clearly understand and communicate their position. Being a team player isn’t about doing what’s good for the team, it’s about playing the team.
That Robin Hanson has argued for your position helps, but once again I get to benefit from any doubt. On topics that are difficult or unintuitive Robin or Eliezer can expect effort to be expended understanding them before their controversial claims are harvested for status. But the topics are still difficult to understand or controversial so take some time to become a norm. Until that time you are still a ripe target if you express them yourself without the high status advocacy evidenced somewhere in the context.
But be careful. Make too much effort to convey that you are supporting the position of the high status guy and I can insinuate that you are a sycophant. Yes, it’s absurd to claim that you are both out-of-group and a sycophantic in-grouper, but an even moderately competent debater will get away with such nonsense. A token effort at subtlety and a couple of posts buffer in between are more than enough. After all, nobody is going to stand up for the out-of-group guy. That usually applies even if ‘stand up for’ is replaced with ‘even become conscious of the absurdity of the accusations levelled at’.
I’m afraid playing Devil’s Advocate just gives wannabe-angels a chance to try to prove that they’re the next Archangel Gabriel.
RAOW! Did I signal that I’m on the wrong “team” there? FWIW, Robin Hanson brought up the same thing here.
Yes, the probabilities are different, but critics of ID consistently, incessantly argue that ID and related concepts are not just wrong, but incoherent and totally outside the realm of science. Don’t you think it’s significant that Dawkins—without probably realizing it—just admitted that there’s a 1% chance of this incoherent, unscientific idea being true?
Nope, not a good enough reason for refusing to address the case as presented without reference to the persons presenting it.
Well of course Dawkin’s doesn’t deny it when talking to Ben Stein ;-) But if you’re asking if there’s evidence Dawkins changes his claims when talking to creationists, well, sure, for one thing, he changes his claims to ”...” when talking to creationists by virtue of not debating them.
But as for the fundamental issue: all across YouTube and the blogosphere, anti-creationists (sorry, don’t know a better term to use, suggest a better one rather than criticize) were absolutely livid that Stein presented a Dawkins interview that he got under false pretenses and that this somehow makes the claims of the interviewees less significant. Now tell me, for purposes of ascertaining what Dawkins believes, why does it matter whether Dawkins made a statement in an interview with a creationist vs. in an interview “about” religion?
So that’s why I ask about the epistemological status of “I believe this, but not in a way that creationists are ever supposed to hear”.
The point is, when people like Dawkins so horribly fail at the use of probabilities, it makes it easier for people like me to be a devil’s advocate for creationists.
No, you said something I thought was obviously unreasonable. There’s a difference.
Sorry, but if “related concepts” includes the possibility that life on earth might have been designed (really truly without any implication that the designer need be supernatural) then I don’t believe you.
(Two examples of such “related concepts”: In The God Delusion—notable among Dawkins’s works, of course, for its consistent open-mindedness towards religious ideas[1] -- Dawkins says, in so many words, (a) that it’s very likely that there are intelligent aliens whose powers we would readily classify as godlike, and (b) that if a genuine instance of “irreducible complexity” could be found, then indeed Darwinian evolution would be dead.)
OK, so you don’t consider it a good enough reason. However, if Dawkins does—and it’s not hard to see why he might—it seems to me that your sneering at his “epistemologicical status” is un-called-for.
Excuse me, but are you even slightly serious? (Perhaps I’ve made the mistake of responding seriously to what’s just 100% trolling, in which case I hereby apologize to anyone whose time I’ve wasted.) In what possible world is there any equivalence, as far as “epistemological status” goes, between (1) “Dawkins says one thing to one set of people and another incompatible thing to another set of people”—your earlier assertion—and (2) “Dawkins says one thing to one set of people and doesn’t talk to another set of people”?
What, please, does that have to do with Dawkins’s opinions, or practices, or attitudes, or honesty, or intellectual integrity?
I’m not aware that anyone has said it does. Would you care to make your argument a bit more explicit at this point?
Er, is it just me or is this a complete change of subject?
Why should Dawkins, or anyone else, care how easy it is for someone to be a devil’s advocate for creationists? If what you actually mean is that it makes it easier for creationists to be advocates for creationists, then that would be more to the point, but it’s not quite clear to me what you’re now arguing. Earlier on, it looked like you were casting aspersions on Dawkins’s honesty or integrity or something; now it seems you’ve switched to commenting on his tactics.
[1] Why yes, that was a joke.
Yes, you’ve definitely been saying things that could be twisted for the purpose of gaining status at your expense.
I warned that I’ve played devils advocate on this issue. I’ve argued a position held by Robin Hanson. And I’m on Less-muthaf—in’-Wrong-dot-com.
Doesn’t that get me a little leeway on the tribalism?
Afraid not. It is my role (as Machiavelli’s advocate) to be as unreasonable in my interpretation of your position as I think I can get away with. ‘Devil’s Advocacy’ is seldom fully appreciated, even with warnings and it is (or would be) my role to encourage that. You can only appeal to Devil’s Advocacy so many times without appearing insecure, a defeat from which I would benefit far more than in merely proving you to be out-of-group.
No, it doesn’t matter if your arguments are good ones. It doesn’t matter if your contribution adds much needed rigour and balance to the discussion. It doesn’t matter if your efforts probing and challenging allows the in group to more clearly understand and communicate their position. Being a team player isn’t about doing what’s good for the team, it’s about playing the team.
That Robin Hanson has argued for your position helps, but once again I get to benefit from any doubt. On topics that are difficult or unintuitive Robin or Eliezer can expect effort to be expended understanding them before their controversial claims are harvested for status. But the topics are still difficult to understand or controversial so take some time to become a norm. Until that time you are still a ripe target if you express them yourself without the high status advocacy evidenced somewhere in the context.
But be careful. Make too much effort to convey that you are supporting the position of the high status guy and I can insinuate that you are a sycophant. Yes, it’s absurd to claim that you are both out-of-group and a sycophantic in-grouper, but an even moderately competent debater will get away with such nonsense. A token effort at subtlety and a couple of posts buffer in between are more than enough. After all, nobody is going to stand up for the out-of-group guy. That usually applies even if ‘stand up for’ is replaced with ‘even become conscious of the absurdity of the accusations levelled at’.
I’m afraid playing Devil’s Advocate just gives wannabe-angels a chance to try to prove that they’re the next Archangel Gabriel.
I’m not convinced our barriers for entry are all that high.
The tribalist I complained about wasn’t a low-karma newcomer ;-) (snark removed)
I would be interested to know what, as a matter of general principle, you think is sufficient evidence to justify calling someone a “tribalist”.