I also want to make clear that it was not my intent to make any implied threats. Quite the opposite; I was concerned that my reply would be viewed as an attack or call for reaction, and wanted to make it clear I did not want that. Saying “I’m not even going to downvote” was me saying I didn’t think it even rose to that level of disagreement, nothing more.
Understood.
I also think that we have an even bigger issue with karma than I thought, if a downvote as a threat is even a coherent concept.
Considering I have −12 karma on both posts (possibly from the same people) I think so. The idea of tying certain features to certain karma levels is pretty scary. If criticism is met with downvotes, then even if you don’t care about karma in itself, insomuch as your karma determines what you can and cannot do, you may want watch what you say. ________________________________________________________________ In favour of the spirit of civilisation, I would like to say a few things:
I don’t think of you as an enemy. “Opponent” is an internal label (that in certain circumstances) I apply to everyone not myself. This does not preclude cooperation.
I may have come across as hostile and accusatory; I apologise. That was not my intention. (I do not apologise for mentioning FGA, and motivated cognition (so perhaps you can file this as an apology that is not really an apology), but I apologise for offense received (unless you find the very suggestion of irrationality offensive, in which case I retract my apology (so once again an apology that is not really an apology, or as I prefer to say a “conditional apology”)).
My intention was to be a helpful critic. I was not suggesting that you must change you to change definition immeidately: My suggestions were:
If a better definition is your true rejection, then beware the FGA. Either implement the proposed change, or explicitly state the requirements for a definition you would accept. FGAs are very tempting, and we change our minds less often than we think. Masking your true rejection behind a FGA only exacerbates the problem. Stating explicitly what your criteria are would make your true rejection plainly visible, and destroy the FGA.
More explicitly: If you were indeed holding out for a better definition:
Temporary implement the proposed change (insomuch as it is better than what you originally proposed).
Explicitly specify what your requirements are for a new definition. This way, you would precommit to accepting a definition that meets your explicit requirements. You wouldn’t be able to use an FGA to reject any proposed change, and would be able to overcome motivated cognition.
Irrationality is the default. Overcoming motivated cognition and being rational is an active effort; I stand by this statement. We are aspiring rationalists, and we are not beyond errors. We are overcoming bias, and have not overcome bias. When I point out what I perceive as errors in rationality, it’s not meant to be offensive. If my wording makes it offensive, I can optimise that. If you find the concept of being irrational is offensive, then I wouldn’t even bother optimising wording.
My initial message can be summed as thus:
The reply you gave can be applied to any proposed change, and thus is a fully general counterargument. Be careful how you use it. FGAs support motivated cognition. If actual quality of the definition is not your true rejection, then you would be a motivated sceptic. With an FGA, you can resist any definition proposed no matter how good it is. It is better to remove temptation than to try and overcome it. Thus, it is better if you remove the temptation that the FGA offers. Two ways to do this are:
Commit to accepting any definition better than the current one.
Explicitly state your criteria for accepting a definition. This criteria must be externally verifiable. This is precommitting to accepting a definition that meets the proposed standards. You’ll be able to remove the temptation of the FGA and motivated cognition.
Based on this:
In addition, changing definitions is expensive once you’ve opened a concept to public discussion. It would in fact be perfectly reasonable to say that yes, Yi is better than X, but it is not better enough yet to justify switching, or that we should consider whether there exists Yj before paying switching costs.
It may be that you find “1” to be an unacceptable choice. I was not aware of that argument when I proposed “1“. Personally, I would still go ahead with “1”, but I’m not you, and we have different value systems. I have not seen a good argument against “2”, and I urge you to enact it.
Understood.
Considering I have −12 karma on both posts (possibly from the same people) I think so. The idea of tying certain features to certain karma levels is pretty scary. If criticism is met with downvotes, then even if you don’t care about karma in itself, insomuch as your karma determines what you can and cannot do, you may want watch what you say.
________________________________________________________________
In favour of the spirit of civilisation, I would like to say a few things:
I don’t think of you as an enemy. “Opponent” is an internal label (that in certain circumstances) I apply to everyone not myself. This does not preclude cooperation.
I may have come across as hostile and accusatory; I apologise. That was not my intention. (I do not apologise for mentioning FGA, and motivated cognition (so perhaps you can file this as an apology that is not really an apology), but I apologise for offense received (unless you find the very suggestion of irrationality offensive, in which case I retract my apology (so once again an apology that is not really an apology, or as I prefer to say a “conditional apology”)).
My intention was to be a helpful critic. I was not suggesting that you must change you to change definition immeidately: My suggestions were:
More explicitly: If you were indeed holding out for a better definition:
Temporary implement the proposed change (insomuch as it is better than what you originally proposed).
Explicitly specify what your requirements are for a new definition. This way, you would precommit to accepting a definition that meets your explicit requirements. You wouldn’t be able to use an FGA to reject any proposed change, and would be able to overcome motivated cognition.
Irrationality is the default. Overcoming motivated cognition and being rational is an active effort; I stand by this statement. We are aspiring rationalists, and we are not beyond errors. We are overcoming bias, and have not overcome bias. When I point out what I perceive as errors in rationality, it’s not meant to be offensive. If my wording makes it offensive, I can optimise that. If you find the concept of being irrational is offensive, then I wouldn’t even bother optimising wording.
My initial message can be summed as thus:
Based on this:
It may be that you find “1” to be an unacceptable choice. I was not aware of that argument when I proposed “1“. Personally, I would still go ahead with “1”, but I’m not you, and we have different value systems. I have not seen a good argument against “2”, and I urge you to enact it.