Someone spending their precious time going through someone’s history to decrease their near-meaningless number as much as they possibly can is already losing. I hear about this happening so infrequently, and it’s so totally inconsequential, that I don’t think it merits thinking up/making changes to anything.
All protestations to the opposite aside, I very much doubt that karma is generally viewed as “near-meaningless”. It is the main avenue of feedback and affirmation in what is often viewed as a rather intimidating environment (by newcomers especially).
As for those spending time with retributive downvoting, how do you know that they do not gain more satisfaction out of that than, say, watching the new BSG webisodes, using their “precious time”. From Will_Newsome to Wei_Dai, I’ve seen even some veterans explain the importance they ascribe to karma. Would you laugh it off if your karma score were reduced to 0 by one guy with a few sockpuppets?
It’s the only quantifiable metric in this social game. There even is a “top contributers” meta game on the sidebar. Of course all that makes it en vogue to pretend not to care, similar to wealthy people acting as if money weren’t worth talking about.
On individual comments and posts, the karma system is valuable for telling you if you’re being stupid or not, and I appreciate it for that. The total karma score is (how long you’ve been on LW) (how often you post) (how much people like what you say); it says something like “how much you contribute to this site”, which I find much less interesting, and I personally don’t care if it’s accurate.
I am, in fact, accusing people who downvote all posts by one person as using their time incorrectly; there are so many other things they could be doing that would make them happier and better-off, including nothing at all, that there’s not much excuse for going through with it.
If my karma were reduced to zero, I would continue carrying on as I do now, commenting on this and that, and my karma would from then on be a positive number I don’t pay attention to. A phlegmatic disposition has its advantages.
The problem is that it isn’t meaningless. I was in the middle of a rather interesting ethical discussion, and many of my posts that I had just made went from 0 to −1, potentially dropping off of the radar of other readers. All it takes is two users colluding (or one user with an additional sock account) to effectively shut down someone else’s entire voice.
If a post goes from 4 to 3, that isn’t a big deal, but if it drops below the minimum display threshold before anyone gets a chance to read it, the entire flow of conversation gets disrupted.
Perhaps you could convince someone who wasn’t very interested in the discussion to blindly upvote all of your posts, to counteract it? You are right that this has an impact on ongoing discussions, but it can also be undone with the help of a kindly stranger.
Well, here’s to crossing fingers and hoping that the metasystem stabilizes, and I appreciate the gesture. ;)
And let it further be known that if I feel like the process has swung too far in the other direction (i.e., giving me too MUCH karma), I promise to expend that karma responding to negative-karma posts in an attempt to explain how I feel they could adjust their posting behavior towards more rational discourse.
The problem is that once you give humans a number they have some control over they will try to modify it and care about it. Even if they only care a little bit. This is to a large extent how MMOs work for example. Prior discussion of this issue on Less Wrong which I can’t find at the moment resulted in the Kill Everyone Project being pointed out as an extreme real life example. And since for karma one only has partial control, this essentially amounts to randomized reinforcement, which is one of the most addictive forms of reinforcement.
Someone spending their precious time going through someone’s history to decrease their near-meaningless number as much as they possibly can is already losing. I hear about this happening so infrequently, and it’s so totally inconsequential, that I don’t think it merits thinking up/making changes to anything.
All protestations to the opposite aside, I very much doubt that karma is generally viewed as “near-meaningless”. It is the main avenue of feedback and affirmation in what is often viewed as a rather intimidating environment (by newcomers especially).
As for those spending time with retributive downvoting, how do you know that they do not gain more satisfaction out of that than, say, watching the new BSG webisodes, using their “precious time”. From Will_Newsome to Wei_Dai, I’ve seen even some veterans explain the importance they ascribe to karma. Would you laugh it off if your karma score were reduced to 0 by one guy with a few sockpuppets?
It’s the only quantifiable metric in this social game. There even is a “top contributers” meta game on the sidebar. Of course all that makes it en vogue to pretend not to care, similar to wealthy people acting as if money weren’t worth talking about.
If you truly don’t care, good for you.
On individual comments and posts, the karma system is valuable for telling you if you’re being stupid or not, and I appreciate it for that. The total karma score is (how long you’ve been on LW) (how often you post) (how much people like what you say); it says something like “how much you contribute to this site”, which I find much less interesting, and I personally don’t care if it’s accurate.
I am, in fact, accusing people who downvote all posts by one person as using their time incorrectly; there are so many other things they could be doing that would make them happier and better-off, including nothing at all, that there’s not much excuse for going through with it.
If my karma were reduced to zero, I would continue carrying on as I do now, commenting on this and that, and my karma would from then on be a positive number I don’t pay attention to. A phlegmatic disposition has its advantages.
The problem is that it isn’t meaningless. I was in the middle of a rather interesting ethical discussion, and many of my posts that I had just made went from 0 to −1, potentially dropping off of the radar of other readers. All it takes is two users colluding (or one user with an additional sock account) to effectively shut down someone else’s entire voice.
If a post goes from 4 to 3, that isn’t a big deal, but if it drops below the minimum display threshold before anyone gets a chance to read it, the entire flow of conversation gets disrupted.
Perhaps you could convince someone who wasn’t very interested in the discussion to blindly upvote all of your posts, to counteract it? You are right that this has an impact on ongoing discussions, but it can also be undone with the help of a kindly stranger.
I feel like correcting an abuse of a system by further abusing the system is a bad precedent to set
If you feel this is a viable solution, you could have simply implemented it, rather than suggesting that I convince someone to implement.
Let it be known that I’ve upvoted all of your things to counteract whichever person downvoted all of your things, and nobody else should do that.
Well, here’s to crossing fingers and hoping that the metasystem stabilizes, and I appreciate the gesture. ;)
And let it further be known that if I feel like the process has swung too far in the other direction (i.e., giving me too MUCH karma), I promise to expend that karma responding to negative-karma posts in an attempt to explain how I feel they could adjust their posting behavior towards more rational discourse.
Make it bad advice though lest you get more upvotes.
Good to see that your topic has ultimately led to a portable, scalable and non-complicated solution.
The problem is that once you give humans a number they have some control over they will try to modify it and care about it. Even if they only care a little bit. This is to a large extent how MMOs work for example. Prior discussion of this issue on Less Wrong which I can’t find at the moment resulted in the Kill Everyone Project being pointed out as an extreme real life example. And since for karma one only has partial control, this essentially amounts to randomized reinforcement, which is one of the most addictive forms of reinforcement.