When an average person says “ethics”, ey is usually referring to a system of intuitions and social pressures designed to influence the behavior of members of a group. … Why don’t we talk about the social meaning of ethics?
I get the impression that to a utilitarian, ethics doesn’t have a “social meaning” in the sense that it deals with the way society pressures us to behave in a certain way. A utilitarian cares about other people, but ey doesn’t pay too much attention to what society wants—given a choice between doing what society wants and doing the right thing, a utilitarian moral realist will try to do the right thing.
… a failure to properly distinguish between decision theory and what society pressures people to do. Most lesswrong users probably understand the distinction fairly clearly …
They do indeed, but many of them probably deny that “what society pressures people to do” is the same thing as “what is right”. And the utilitarians are able to embed their morality in their utility function, and so they use the same decision theory for what is ‘right’ and for what is ‘advantageous’.
I think of values/morality/desires/preferences/etc. in the form of a large utility function. I can’t work with numbers, of course, but it helps me sort things out in my head.
I exist. I am conscious of my own identity. I was born and I shall die. I have arms and legs. I occupy a particular point in space. No other solid object can occupy the same point simultaneously.
Is it in that sense, that you are pretty sure that utilitarians exist?
I’m pretty sure that there are people who sincerely claim to be utilitarians in the sense that they try to use that ethical doctrine to guide their actions. Is this really controversial?
To anyone besides tim_tyler, that is?
ETA: I recognize that I am confused. Can anyone point out what I am missing here?
When I said I had never met a utilitarian, I meant, literally, that I have never even met someone who claimed to be a utilitarian. When I said that I am sure that there are sincere utilitarians who try their best to use the doctrine to guide their actions, I meant exactly that.
As far as I am concerned, someone who tries to be a utilitarian really is a utilitarian.
I get the impression that to a utilitarian, ethics doesn’t have a “social meaning” in the sense that it deals with the way society pressures us to behave in a certain way. A utilitarian cares about other people, but ey doesn’t pay too much attention to what society wants—given a choice between doing what society wants and doing the right thing, a utilitarian moral realist will try to do the right thing.
They do indeed, but many of them probably deny that “what society pressures people to do” is the same thing as “what is right”. And the utilitarians are able to embed their morality in their utility function, and so they use the same decision theory for what is ‘right’ and for what is ‘advantageous’.
Have you ever met a utilitarian?
I think of values/morality/desires/preferences/etc. in the form of a large utility function. I can’t work with numbers, of course, but it helps me sort things out in my head.
Not outside of a philosophy text or a blog posting, no, I haven’t. But I’m pretty sure they do exist.
I exist. I am conscious of my own identity. I was born and I shall die. I have arms and legs. I occupy a particular point in space. No other solid object can occupy the same point simultaneously.
Is it in that sense, that you are pretty sure that utilitarians exist?
I’m pretty sure that there are people who sincerely claim to be utilitarians in the sense that they try to use that ethical doctrine to guide their actions. Is this really controversial? To anyone besides tim_tyler, that is?
ETA: I recognize that I am confused. Can anyone point out what I am missing here?
I thought you might be suggesting that no-one is actually a utilitarian, although they might believe they are.
When I said I had never met a utilitarian, I meant, literally, that I have never even met someone who claimed to be a utilitarian. When I said that I am sure that there are sincere utilitarians who try their best to use the doctrine to guide their actions, I meant exactly that.
As far as I am concerned, someone who tries to be a utilitarian really is a utilitarian.
(With overwhelmingly high probability.)