Unfortunately, psychology terms/traits are difficult to quantify, e.g. I can’t know someone is “10% narcissistic” in the same way I know a glass of water is “10% full”. I agree, different people have different levels of narcissism.
To test my narcissism detection mechanism, I will look at how narcissistic the main characters of a few other popular books are. This is a better test than looking for narcissism in other characters in HPMOR (where the most-frequently-observed character is the most narcissistic). The evidence against narcissism is the opposite of the traits listed: average or low sense of self-importance, primarily interested in others, goals are usually about others, many relationships, etc.
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen:
Grandiose? No—Elizabeth has no expectation of becoming Queen or even, initially, of marrying a very rich man.
Self-obsessed? No—Elizabeth is concerned for her sisters’ welfare as much as she is for her own.
Troubles with normal relationships? No—she has social contacts appropriate for her era and standing.
Furious if criticized? No—she reacts to criticism with thoughtful calm in public, followed by private reflection.
Fantasies of unbound success, power, etc.? No—she wants to marry a good man and live happily
etc.
The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien:
Grandiose? No—Frodo longs to remain in the Shire, at peace.
Self-obsessed? No—Frodo takes the Ring for the good of other people, and resists the urge to use it himself.
Troubles with normal relationships? No—Frodo is well-liked by the Fellowship and many friends attend his going-away party.
Requires extreme admiration for everything? No—Frodo is OK with being subservient to Gandalf.
etc.
Watchmen by Alan Moore:
Grandiose? No—Dan Dreiberg (Nite Owl) retired from crime-fighting and lives quietly.
Self-obsessed? Probably not—While Dreiberg lives alone, he goes out of his way to help Rorschach and Laurie.
Troubles with normal relationships? Maybe—Dreiberg lives alone, and it’s not clear what he does with his time outside of the events of the story.
Fantasies of unbound success, power, etc? No—Dreiberg is not seeking more power, and only reactivates his crime-fighting gear when driven to it by the events of the story.
Feels entitled? No—is frustrated but doesn’t complain much at all when Dr. Manhattan takes Laurie to Mars.
From these negative results I conclude that my narcissism detector is working adequately.
Hmm. Would I be wildly wrong in describing Mrs Bennett (Elizabeth’s mother) as a terrible narcissist though? In which case Elizabeth should be more likely to be a narcissist herself, or a people-pleaser? Maybe she got lucky, because she’s hardly either. Although her sisters, well...
Good fiction often rings true to real life, but it’s no more than a bit of fun to analyse it as though it were a case study of something that actually happened. Still, I’m not against fun. I bet it was fun for Jane Austen to write the character of Mr Collins. Let’s see your science explain him ;)
But, I do see what you mean, that listing pro-narcissist examples is less convincing than comparing the number of pro- and anti-narcissist examples. Harry rarely recognizes or cares about what other people are feeling and rarely accepts others’ dominance, and often fails to recognize others’ feelings and often refuses to accept others’ dominance.
You might consider comparing to other teenage protagonists. I think that on average a 12 year old is going to score much higher on an evaluation of narcissism than a retiree. A lot of this is developmental.
I can think of lots and lots of examples of characters within the fantasy/magic genre that I feel like would meet your definition of narcissism. Frodo is, as far as I can tell, the exception rather than the rule in hero stories, and indeed his mediocrity is a central plot point. If we look back to traditional hero stories, they all seem a bit full of themselves. Is Harry more narcissistic than Achilles? Agamemnon? Is he more excited about his own cleverness than Odysseus? Compare Harry to a young Bean or Ender from the Orson Scott Card novels. Compare him to Rand al’Thor’s obsession with his own personal strength. Compare him to Batman.
You’ve picked two novels that don’t have heroes in them and one with an intentionally mediocre hero. There’s a lot of literature out there. It’s pretty easy to cherry-pick it to support just about any conclusion, but I feel like within genre Harry is much more the norm than the exception.
Unfortunately, psychology terms/traits are difficult to quantify, e.g. I can’t know someone is “10% narcissistic” in the same way I know a glass of water is “10% full”. I agree, different people have different levels of narcissism.
To test my narcissism detection mechanism, I will look at how narcissistic the main characters of a few other popular books are. This is a better test than looking for narcissism in other characters in HPMOR (where the most-frequently-observed character is the most narcissistic). The evidence against narcissism is the opposite of the traits listed: average or low sense of self-importance, primarily interested in others, goals are usually about others, many relationships, etc.
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen: Grandiose? No—Elizabeth has no expectation of becoming Queen or even, initially, of marrying a very rich man. Self-obsessed? No—Elizabeth is concerned for her sisters’ welfare as much as she is for her own. Troubles with normal relationships? No—she has social contacts appropriate for her era and standing. Furious if criticized? No—she reacts to criticism with thoughtful calm in public, followed by private reflection. Fantasies of unbound success, power, etc.? No—she wants to marry a good man and live happily etc.
The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien: Grandiose? No—Frodo longs to remain in the Shire, at peace. Self-obsessed? No—Frodo takes the Ring for the good of other people, and resists the urge to use it himself. Troubles with normal relationships? No—Frodo is well-liked by the Fellowship and many friends attend his going-away party. Requires extreme admiration for everything? No—Frodo is OK with being subservient to Gandalf. etc.
Watchmen by Alan Moore: Grandiose? No—Dan Dreiberg (Nite Owl) retired from crime-fighting and lives quietly. Self-obsessed? Probably not—While Dreiberg lives alone, he goes out of his way to help Rorschach and Laurie. Troubles with normal relationships? Maybe—Dreiberg lives alone, and it’s not clear what he does with his time outside of the events of the story. Fantasies of unbound success, power, etc? No—Dreiberg is not seeking more power, and only reactivates his crime-fighting gear when driven to it by the events of the story. Feels entitled? No—is frustrated but doesn’t complain much at all when Dr. Manhattan takes Laurie to Mars.
From these negative results I conclude that my narcissism detector is working adequately.
Hmm. Would I be wildly wrong in describing Mrs Bennett (Elizabeth’s mother) as a terrible narcissist though? In which case Elizabeth should be more likely to be a narcissist herself, or a people-pleaser? Maybe she got lucky, because she’s hardly either. Although her sisters, well...
Good fiction often rings true to real life, but it’s no more than a bit of fun to analyse it as though it were a case study of something that actually happened. Still, I’m not against fun. I bet it was fun for Jane Austen to write the character of Mr Collins. Let’s see your science explain him ;)
But, I do see what you mean, that listing pro-narcissist examples is less convincing than comparing the number of pro- and anti-narcissist examples. Harry rarely recognizes or cares about what other people are feeling and rarely accepts others’ dominance, and often fails to recognize others’ feelings and often refuses to accept others’ dominance.
You might consider comparing to other teenage protagonists. I think that on average a 12 year old is going to score much higher on an evaluation of narcissism than a retiree. A lot of this is developmental.
I can think of lots and lots of examples of characters within the fantasy/magic genre that I feel like would meet your definition of narcissism. Frodo is, as far as I can tell, the exception rather than the rule in hero stories, and indeed his mediocrity is a central plot point. If we look back to traditional hero stories, they all seem a bit full of themselves. Is Harry more narcissistic than Achilles? Agamemnon? Is he more excited about his own cleverness than Odysseus? Compare Harry to a young Bean or Ender from the Orson Scott Card novels. Compare him to Rand al’Thor’s obsession with his own personal strength. Compare him to Batman.
You’ve picked two novels that don’t have heroes in them and one with an intentionally mediocre hero. There’s a lot of literature out there. It’s pretty easy to cherry-pick it to support just about any conclusion, but I feel like within genre Harry is much more the norm than the exception.