Harry missed an opportunity to do good with Lesath. He should have given him orders that would make him behave in a way that might make him happier. Like:
“Acquire friends. Acquire power. Acquire happiness. Try to publicly join a faction, if any will have you, so that you aren’t a loner associated with the one Death Eater that even other Death Eaters repudiate, but are instead associated with respectable Slytherins. If Slytherins won’t have you because you’re worthless as an ally, try moving to Hufflepuff. Note that Neville was willing to defend you from bullies; make him and others like him like you. Publicly repudiate your mother if plausible.”
And even more importantly:
“Do not ever try to act on my, the Dark Lord Harry’s, behalf, or to help me, without explicit orders from me. Not if you’re sure you’d be helping me greatly. Not if you’re sure I’d approve afterwards. Not if you’re among Death Eaters. Not even if you come face-to-face with your mother. Not if you think I ordered it but you can’t be sure because I wasn’t talking literally. Not if you get mailed orders from me and you know they’re from me because they appear under your pillow while you’re sleeping and everybody knows only I can do the impossible. Not ever. If I want you to do something, you’ll know.”
As it is, my story-pattern-matching is yelling that Harry is going to be exposed by Lesath trying to help him.
Those would all be excellent ideas if Lesath was a perfect Occulemens. As it is, as far as Harry knows Snape may very well be mind-reading as a matter of routine. He’s probably get away with claiming to be playing along for the sake of manipulating Lesath, but given the circumstances cannot be blamed for playing it safe.
Harry should certainly say to Lesath: “I am not your Lord and I did not free your mother from Azkaban, but since you wrongly believe that I am and did, here are my orders for you, which you will notice benefit you and not me.”
Snape was the one who originally introduced Harry to Lesath with the intention of helping Lesath (at least, he didn’t mind that Harry helped him). He wouldn’t be surprised if Harry reacted this way.
“Acquire friends. Acquire power. Acquire happiness. Try to publicly join a faction, if any will have you, so that you aren’t a loner associated with the one Death Eater that even other Death Eaters repudiate, but are instead associated with respectable Slytherins. If Slytherins won’t have you because you’re worthless as an ally, try moving to Hufflepuff. Note that Neville was willing to defend you from bullies; make him and others like him like you. Publicly repudiate your mother if plausible.”
I like this idea, except I’d leave out the last bit if it were me. You’ve already left yourself some wiggle room with the “if plausible,” so you probably wouldn’t get Lesath into much trouble that way, but given what we’ve seen of him fanatic & public loyalty seems to be a big part of his nature. It’s probably the only reason he’s in Slytherin (loyalty to the idea of Slytherin, I mean—I bet he had to beg the Sorting Hat, as otherwise he seems completely unsuited to the House). It looks like he’s formed his identity around that loyalty, and it might do a number on his head if he had to suddenly act in an inconsistent manner.
That capacity for loyalty would make him a great minion though. Harry already caught himself wishing for a Bella of his own, and now! Here’s her son, pledging his life...
It looks like he’s formed his identity around that loyalty, and it might do a number on his head if he had to suddenly act in an inconsistent manner.
A fourth-year Slytherin who doesn’t understand the concept of pretending in public isn’t worth feeding to a pet snake. He doesn’t have to speak against his mother so much as to keep quiet and find a way to avoid bullies.
But what you say is true. All the more reason he should associate with Hufflepuffs—they can appreciate loyalty.
Harry missed an opportunity to do good with Lesath.
Agreed. I think if Harry had had proper prep time (which he would have if he hadn’t assumed it was a different L.L.) he would most likely have done this. Unless Hermione has succeeded in shaming him into stopping.
As it is, my story-pattern-matching is yelling that Harry is going to be exposed by Lesath trying to help him.
There is a strong similarity to a certain storyline in Death Note, isn’t there? But unlike Mikami, Lesath doesn’t have the power to expose Harry other than by coincidence, because Harry hasn’t trusted him with any information.
There’s certainly a danger of Lesath ridding him of a meddlesome priest, or jumping in front of an Avada Kedavra.
Exactly. He might compromise Harry by doing some stupid and/or evil thing and then, when found out, telling everyone he did it for Dark Lord Harry. Like ridding him of a meddlesome Hermione by pushing her down the stairs, since Draco told all Slytherin that Harry and Hermione are enemies.
Imagine Lesath trying to be to Harry what his mother was to Voldermort. Only even less intelligently.
He’s heavy-handedly manipulating someone for their own good, in a way that increases his own power and makes him feel superior. He’s treating someone who should be a peer like a trainable dog.
If you accept that it’s for their own good—and if it does result in their own good—then shouldn’t that outweigh the heavy-handedness? But Hermione told him not to do that kind of thing at all, instead of “be less heavy-handed next time”.
As for making him feel superior? Harry already feels vastly superior to someone like Lesath, as well as mostly everyone else apart from Hermione. I don’t think giving him a few ‘orders for his own good’ would change anything there.
And he can’t treat Lesath like a peer, for the simple reason that Lesath wouldn’t accept it. If Lesath insists that Harry is his Lord, and Harry can’t change his mind about it (he tried!), why shouldn’t Harry use it for Lesath’s own good?
Come to think of it, we may well get to see this exchange. But since we won’t see it for a while, I’ll try to channel it:
“Harry, taking people’s interests into account—being a good guy—requires thinking of them as people. You care a lot about a human, less about a dog, and not at all about a paperclip, right?”
“Right.”
“So when you don’t treat a human like a human—”
“Hold on. You’re equivocating. To ‘treat a human like’ their desires are as important to my utility function as my own is an absolute good. To ‘treat a human like’ convention dictates a human should be treated is a contingent good—it only makes sense when that helps them achieve their desires.”
“No, they’re not the same thing, Harry. But they’re closely linked in your head. You have a cluster of concepts, instincts, and behaviors to do with humans, and each bit reinforces each other bit. You can plainly see how it works: if you spend a year pretending that a toy is a person, you’ll become incredibly reluctant to take it apart for spare parts. Conversely, if you start acting like people are your toys...”
“Now you’re dehumanizing me a bit, Hermione. If I go into an interaction with Padma planning to help her, I’m going to end up doing my best to help her. Because I’m a sentient being who is aware of his own intentions, not a finite state machine that can get accidentally stuck in the mode for dealing with paperclips.”
“Well, Harry, I guess you have more faith in yourself than I do. I think you want your utility function to be different from what it is. I think that, like a lot of people, you’re more selfish than you want to be.”
“That’s incoherent.”
“Exactly. You’re not going to behave in a logically coherent way. It’s okay to aspire to do so, I guess, but please realize that right now, you have to be sure not to—”
“Accidentally train myself to be a bad dog rather than a good dog?”
“Not to drift into Evil while trying to be Good. That’s the human condition.”
“To ‘treat a human like’ convention dictates a human should be treated is a contingent good—it only makes sense when that helps them achieve their desires”
The obvious thing this seems to miss is that most people do desire to be treated like people—at the very least as equals, and with dignity and respect.
So treating them otherwise is by itself of negative value—not just contingent to other consequences.
I basically agree, although in my mind it doesn’t make Harry’s line technically incorrect. It’s not always another’s desire to be treated as an equal, so in that sense it’s not an absolute good to treat people as one. Whereas it’s always another’s desire to have her desires fulfilled.
most people do desire to be treated like people—at the very least as equals, and with dignity and respect
Since Lesath is an exception (at least when treated by Harry), that should mean that Hermione’s objection doesn’t apply in this case, and Harry should realise as much.
I originally had written that below, but actually I disagree. Lesath doesn’t abase himself because he enjoys it! He does so because that’s how you get Dark Lords to do what you want. It’s reasonable to assume that he’d prefer being treated as an equal—he just has higher priorities than trying to make that happen.
Harry missed an opportunity to do good with Lesath. He should have given him orders that would make him behave in a way that might make him happier. Like:
“Acquire friends. Acquire power. Acquire happiness. Try to publicly join a faction, if any will have you, so that you aren’t a loner associated with the one Death Eater that even other Death Eaters repudiate, but are instead associated with respectable Slytherins. If Slytherins won’t have you because you’re worthless as an ally, try moving to Hufflepuff. Note that Neville was willing to defend you from bullies; make him and others like him like you. Publicly repudiate your mother if plausible.”
And even more importantly:
“Do not ever try to act on my, the Dark Lord Harry’s, behalf, or to help me, without explicit orders from me. Not if you’re sure you’d be helping me greatly. Not if you’re sure I’d approve afterwards. Not if you’re among Death Eaters. Not even if you come face-to-face with your mother. Not if you think I ordered it but you can’t be sure because I wasn’t talking literally. Not if you get mailed orders from me and you know they’re from me because they appear under your pillow while you’re sleeping and everybody knows only I can do the impossible. Not ever. If I want you to do something, you’ll know.”
As it is, my story-pattern-matching is yelling that Harry is going to be exposed by Lesath trying to help him.
Those would all be excellent ideas if Lesath was a perfect Occulemens. As it is, as far as Harry knows Snape may very well be mind-reading as a matter of routine. He’s probably get away with claiming to be playing along for the sake of manipulating Lesath, but given the circumstances cannot be blamed for playing it safe.
Harry should certainly say to Lesath: “I am not your Lord and I did not free your mother from Azkaban, but since you wrongly believe that I am and did, here are my orders for you, which you will notice benefit you and not me.”
Snape was the one who originally introduced Harry to Lesath with the intention of helping Lesath (at least, he didn’t mind that Harry helped him). He wouldn’t be surprised if Harry reacted this way.
I like this idea, except I’d leave out the last bit if it were me. You’ve already left yourself some wiggle room with the “if plausible,” so you probably wouldn’t get Lesath into much trouble that way, but given what we’ve seen of him fanatic & public loyalty seems to be a big part of his nature. It’s probably the only reason he’s in Slytherin (loyalty to the idea of Slytherin, I mean—I bet he had to beg the Sorting Hat, as otherwise he seems completely unsuited to the House). It looks like he’s formed his identity around that loyalty, and it might do a number on his head if he had to suddenly act in an inconsistent manner.
That capacity for loyalty would make him a great minion though. Harry already caught himself wishing for a Bella of his own, and now! Here’s her son, pledging his life...
A fourth-year Slytherin who doesn’t understand the concept of pretending in public isn’t worth feeding to a pet snake. He doesn’t have to speak against his mother so much as to keep quiet and find a way to avoid bullies.
But what you say is true. All the more reason he should associate with Hufflepuffs—they can appreciate loyalty.
Agreed. I think if Harry had had proper prep time (which he would have if he hadn’t assumed it was a different L.L.) he would most likely have done this. Unless Hermione has succeeded in shaming him into stopping.
There is a strong similarity to a certain storyline in Death Note, isn’t there? But unlike Mikami, Lesath doesn’t have the power to expose Harry other than by coincidence, because Harry hasn’t trusted him with any information.
There’s certainly a danger of Lesath ridding him of a meddlesome priest, or jumping in front of an Avada Kedavra.
Exactly. He might compromise Harry by doing some stupid and/or evil thing and then, when found out, telling everyone he did it for Dark Lord Harry. Like ridding him of a meddlesome Hermione by pushing her down the stairs, since Draco told all Slytherin that Harry and Hermione are enemies.
Imagine Lesath trying to be to Harry what his mother was to Voldermort. Only even less intelligently.
I didn’t understand then, and I don’t understand now. Why was what Harry did wrong (according to Hermione)? And how is it similar to my proposal?
He’s heavy-handedly manipulating someone for their own good, in a way that increases his own power and makes him feel superior. He’s treating someone who should be a peer like a trainable dog.
If you accept that it’s for their own good—and if it does result in their own good—then shouldn’t that outweigh the heavy-handedness? But Hermione told him not to do that kind of thing at all, instead of “be less heavy-handed next time”.
As for making him feel superior? Harry already feels vastly superior to someone like Lesath, as well as mostly everyone else apart from Hermione. I don’t think giving him a few ‘orders for his own good’ would change anything there.
And he can’t treat Lesath like a peer, for the simple reason that Lesath wouldn’t accept it. If Lesath insists that Harry is his Lord, and Harry can’t change his mind about it (he tried!), why shouldn’t Harry use it for Lesath’s own good?
Come to think of it, we may well get to see this exchange. But since we won’t see it for a while, I’ll try to channel it:
“Harry, taking people’s interests into account—being a good guy—requires thinking of them as people. You care a lot about a human, less about a dog, and not at all about a paperclip, right?”
“Right.”
“So when you don’t treat a human like a human—”
“Hold on. You’re equivocating. To ‘treat a human like’ their desires are as important to my utility function as my own is an absolute good. To ‘treat a human like’ convention dictates a human should be treated is a contingent good—it only makes sense when that helps them achieve their desires.”
“No, they’re not the same thing, Harry. But they’re closely linked in your head. You have a cluster of concepts, instincts, and behaviors to do with humans, and each bit reinforces each other bit. You can plainly see how it works: if you spend a year pretending that a toy is a person, you’ll become incredibly reluctant to take it apart for spare parts. Conversely, if you start acting like people are your toys...”
“Now you’re dehumanizing me a bit, Hermione. If I go into an interaction with Padma planning to help her, I’m going to end up doing my best to help her. Because I’m a sentient being who is aware of his own intentions, not a finite state machine that can get accidentally stuck in the mode for dealing with paperclips.”
“Well, Harry, I guess you have more faith in yourself than I do. I think you want your utility function to be different from what it is. I think that, like a lot of people, you’re more selfish than you want to be.”
“That’s incoherent.”
“Exactly. You’re not going to behave in a logically coherent way. It’s okay to aspire to do so, I guess, but please realize that right now, you have to be sure not to—”
“Accidentally train myself to be a bad dog rather than a good dog?”
“Not to drift into Evil while trying to be Good. That’s the human condition.”
“To ‘treat a human like’ convention dictates a human should be treated is a contingent good—it only makes sense when that helps them achieve their desires”
The obvious thing this seems to miss is that most people do desire to be treated like people—at the very least as equals, and with dignity and respect.
So treating them otherwise is by itself of negative value—not just contingent to other consequences.
I basically agree, although in my mind it doesn’t make Harry’s line technically incorrect. It’s not always another’s desire to be treated as an equal, so in that sense it’s not an absolute good to treat people as one. Whereas it’s always another’s desire to have her desires fulfilled.
Since Lesath is an exception (at least when treated by Harry), that should mean that Hermione’s objection doesn’t apply in this case, and Harry should realise as much.
I originally had written that below, but actually I disagree. Lesath doesn’t abase himself because he enjoys it! He does so because that’s how you get Dark Lords to do what you want. It’s reasonable to assume that he’d prefer being treated as an equal—he just has higher priorities than trying to make that happen.
I don’t get that from Lesath; he seems like somebody who’s just a natural minion. But maybe he’s just that good at appearing to be a natural minion!
I like this. Let us know if you ever write fiction of your own, please :)
Thanks!