That doesn’t sound to me like a very honest way of interpreting the quote. It’s one thing to laud an appropriate degree of deference to evidence, and another to praise acceptance of a belief on little or no strong evidence.
Upvoted the quote. It can be a fun exercise to find rationality lessons in unlikely sources. (Last thread someone posted a Baron Harkonnen quote and it got many upvotes. Of course, it wasn’t explicitely marked as Baron Harkonnen quote, just as a Dune quote, so I wonder how many people realized.)
After all, within the fictional narrative in which the Jesus thing is true, those other people were better at changing their minds than the apostles he was addressing.
Of course, it wasn’t explicitely marked as Baron Harkonnen quote, just as a Dune quote, so I wonder how many people realized.
As a Dune fan, I feel compelled to point out that this shouldn’t surprise one. Both from an in-universe and out-of-universe perspective, the Harkonnens are written as characters which have a grip on a lot of truth. The Atreides were little morally better than the Harkonnens, Herbert tells us (he describes the former as descended from the Soviets!), and the latter are quite effective, both practically and genetically. As one should expect, given that the bloodlines mixed very early on in the plot, and given that the Harkonnens resoundingly defeated the Atreides—even if we ignore their conquest of Dune and award the Atreides victory because Muad’dib eventually managed to become Emperor, the Atreides ideals have still been utterly compromised (as remarked many times) and Muad’dib forced into scenarios he wanted desperately to avoid. Some victory. The Bene Gesserit weren’t wrong in thinking that a Harkonnen-Atreides cross would be superhuman, they were wrong about the other things.
I wasn’t precise. What I wasn’t sure that people realized was that the Baron was using the quoted reasoning to justify his wasteful cruelty. I am not even sure i’d argue that it was wrong as a piece of reasoning, but I suspect some people, if aware of the context, would have at least flinched before upvoting, like I suspect there’s flinching going on when a Jesus quote appears.
I certainly agree with you that the Baron had a good grip on reality (not equally good in all places, but still a very effective leader). Still, I wouldn’t make too much of the Harkonnen victory… are you trying to say it indicated an advantage over the Atreides way of thinking? I’d argue against that.
The Harkonnens, as the Baron admitted himself, defeated the Atreides with wealth, with their immense initial advantage, including the support of the Emperor himself. The Atreides had a good grasp of reality too, they were pragmatic and looked to results (for instance: didn’t just count on their benevolence to be self-evident, but had an effective propaganda corps). And they did have a plan based on a better understanding of at least some aspects of the situation: they understood the value of the Fremen, whom the Baron refused to acknowledge as important until Hawat opened his eyes. (One wonders what Piter had been doing during the earlier Harkonnen reign). It is conceivable to me that things could have gone over differently with a bit more time and luck.
/fan
I certainly agree with you that the Baron had a good grip on reality (not equally good in all places, but still a very effective leader). Still, I wouldn’t make too much of the Harkonnen victory… are you trying to say it indicated an advantage over the Atreides way of thinking? I’d argue against that.
I would want to be clear about this: the Atreides may have a net advantage over the Harkonnen, but they are not ‘strictly superior’ to the Harkonnen in every respect. As the Baron explains in the full passage, the Atreides wagered on a strategy (‘rabbits’) that failed against the enemies they knew were gunning for them (‘bees’), so at the very least, their planning was not so hot.
And they did have a plan based on a better understanding of at least some aspects of the situation: they understood the value of the Fremen, whom the Baron refused to acknowledge as important until Hawat opened his eyes.
Aspects which didn’t matter until much later if you count Paul’s resurgence, and which resurgence involved some pretty exotic factors I can’t really blame the Harkonnens for missing.
One wonders what Piter bad been doing during the earlier Harkonnen reign
Being trained, perhaps. Remember that the Baron’s twisted mentats were periodically killed off. The Terrible Duo aside, I don’t think we know how long Piter was at the job—it is entirely possible he had been kept completely busy calculating out the loss of Arrakis and the subsequent invasion. Certainly Hawat (Piter’s non-twisted counterpart) was kept full occupied by his counter-plotting.
Aspects which didn’t matter until much later if you count Paul’s resurgence, and which resurgence involved some pretty exotic factors I can’t really blame the Harkonnens for missing.
There’s a passage where the Baron has pretty clearly been handed the Idiot Ball by Herbert, because he gets direct evidence that the Fremen are superior to the Sardaukar and dismisses it for specious reasons.
There’s also some question in my mind how the Baron missed the reason the Emperor was helping him (Leto had trained a fighting force getting close in strength to the Sardaukar).
Calling it an Idiot Ball is a little harsh. If his prior was that Fremen were pretty worthless, and then a unit of supposed Fremen—who conveniently have Hawat among them—defeat Sardaukar, it’s perhaps easier to explain it by supposing Atreides soldiers wearing Fremen clothes (in fact some of them were just that, since the Atreides group under Hawat did join these Fremen) than to suddenly decide the natives were equal to the Imperium’s most elite fighters. Especially since the Baron had just done something similar, letting Sardaukar fight in Harkonnen uniforms.
Rereading that passage, I was also discounting that Vladimir was getting this info from Rabban, who he doesn’t have strong reason to believe (although he did ask some penetrating questions). So it may be a little harsh.
And they did have a plan based on a better understanding of at least some aspects of the situation: they understood the value of the Fremen, whom the Baron refused to acknowledge as important until Hawat opened his eyes.
Aspects which didn’t matter until much later if you count Paul’s resurgence, and which resurgence involved some pretty exotic factors I can’t really blame the Harkonnens for missing.
Well, they could have mattered, if the Atreides had more time to implement their plan. I’m not sure what point you’re arguing against there—I’m not saying they had a better grasp of reality than the Harkonnens in all respects or even on average.
The Atreides were little morally better than the Harkonnens, Herbert tells us
That is a very strange idea; where does it come from? I’d have said the moral superiority of Atreides over Harkonnens is overwhelmingly obvious, including to in-universe third party characters (e.g. Count and Lady Fenring).
That is a very strange idea; where does it come from? I’d have said the moral superiority of Atreides over Harkonnens is overwhelmingly obvious, including to in-universe third party characters (e.g. Count and Lady Fenring).
It can be a fun exercise, but I think that sometimes creates a bias in favor of interpreting quotes too generously. Even in the context of a narrative where Jesus’s abilities are real, believing in them on the basis of hearsay would still be a poor treatment of evidence; it’s not as if there weren’t plenty of other purported oracles and prophets whose powers were fake.
Well, imagine we’re not talking about the Bible, but some fantasy novel. I assumed that within that kind of a fictional context, there would be a big difference between a real prophet and the usual religious kooks, and the recognition of that difference would be at least somewhat contagious to people who haven’t witnessed it themselves.
But I suppose you’re right, I was being at least a little too generous. Interpreting that quote in terms of rational ability to respond to evidence was an entertaining stretch, but in the end it’s still a stretch.
-- Yeshua ben-Yosef (attributed), on the importance of seeing the winds of evidence instead of waiting for absolute proof.
That doesn’t sound to me like a very honest way of interpreting the quote. It’s one thing to laud an appropriate degree of deference to evidence, and another to praise acceptance of a belief on little or no strong evidence.
Upvoted the quote. It can be a fun exercise to find rationality lessons in unlikely sources. (Last thread someone posted a Baron Harkonnen quote and it got many upvotes. Of course, it wasn’t explicitely marked as Baron Harkonnen quote, just as a Dune quote, so I wonder how many people realized.)
After all, within the fictional narrative in which the Jesus thing is true, those other people were better at changing their minds than the apostles he was addressing.
As a Dune fan, I feel compelled to point out that this shouldn’t surprise one. Both from an in-universe and out-of-universe perspective, the Harkonnens are written as characters which have a grip on a lot of truth. The Atreides were little morally better than the Harkonnens, Herbert tells us (he describes the former as descended from the Soviets!), and the latter are quite effective, both practically and genetically. As one should expect, given that the bloodlines mixed very early on in the plot, and given that the Harkonnens resoundingly defeated the Atreides—even if we ignore their conquest of Dune and award the Atreides victory because Muad’dib eventually managed to become Emperor, the Atreides ideals have still been utterly compromised (as remarked many times) and Muad’dib forced into scenarios he wanted desperately to avoid. Some victory. The Bene Gesserit weren’t wrong in thinking that a Harkonnen-Atreides cross would be superhuman, they were wrong about the other things.
I wasn’t precise. What I wasn’t sure that people realized was that the Baron was using the quoted reasoning to justify his wasteful cruelty. I am not even sure i’d argue that it was wrong as a piece of reasoning, but I suspect some people, if aware of the context, would have at least flinched before upvoting, like I suspect there’s flinching going on when a Jesus quote appears.
I certainly agree with you that the Baron had a good grip on reality (not equally good in all places, but still a very effective leader). Still, I wouldn’t make too much of the Harkonnen victory… are you trying to say it indicated an advantage over the Atreides way of thinking? I’d argue against that.
The Harkonnens, as the Baron admitted himself, defeated the Atreides with wealth, with their immense initial advantage, including the support of the Emperor himself. The Atreides had a good grasp of reality too, they were pragmatic and looked to results (for instance: didn’t just count on their benevolence to be self-evident, but had an effective propaganda corps). And they did have a plan based on a better understanding of at least some aspects of the situation: they understood the value of the Fremen, whom the Baron refused to acknowledge as important until Hawat opened his eyes. (One wonders what Piter had been doing during the earlier Harkonnen reign). It is conceivable to me that things could have gone over differently with a bit more time and luck. /fan
I’d very much like to hear more of your thoughts.
I would want to be clear about this: the Atreides may have a net advantage over the Harkonnen, but they are not ‘strictly superior’ to the Harkonnen in every respect. As the Baron explains in the full passage, the Atreides wagered on a strategy (‘rabbits’) that failed against the enemies they knew were gunning for them (‘bees’), so at the very least, their planning was not so hot.
Aspects which didn’t matter until much later if you count Paul’s resurgence, and which resurgence involved some pretty exotic factors I can’t really blame the Harkonnens for missing.
Being trained, perhaps. Remember that the Baron’s twisted mentats were periodically killed off. The Terrible Duo aside, I don’t think we know how long Piter was at the job—it is entirely possible he had been kept completely busy calculating out the loss of Arrakis and the subsequent invasion. Certainly Hawat (Piter’s non-twisted counterpart) was kept full occupied by his counter-plotting.
There’s a passage where the Baron has pretty clearly been handed the Idiot Ball by Herbert, because he gets direct evidence that the Fremen are superior to the Sardaukar and dismisses it for specious reasons.
There’s also some question in my mind how the Baron missed the reason the Emperor was helping him (Leto had trained a fighting force getting close in strength to the Sardaukar).
Calling it an Idiot Ball is a little harsh. If his prior was that Fremen were pretty worthless, and then a unit of supposed Fremen—who conveniently have Hawat among them—defeat Sardaukar, it’s perhaps easier to explain it by supposing Atreides soldiers wearing Fremen clothes (in fact some of them were just that, since the Atreides group under Hawat did join these Fremen) than to suddenly decide the natives were equal to the Imperium’s most elite fighters. Especially since the Baron had just done something similar, letting Sardaukar fight in Harkonnen uniforms.
Rereading that passage, I was also discounting that Vladimir was getting this info from Rabban, who he doesn’t have strong reason to believe (although he did ask some penetrating questions). So it may be a little harsh.
Well, they could have mattered, if the Atreides had more time to implement their plan. I’m not sure what point you’re arguing against there—I’m not saying they had a better grasp of reality than the Harkonnens in all respects or even on average.
That is a very strange idea; where does it come from? I’d have said the moral superiority of Atreides over Harkonnens is overwhelmingly obvious, including to in-universe third party characters (e.g. Count and Lady Fenring).
Herbert, as I said. See:
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2692
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2690
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2691
It can be a fun exercise, but I think that sometimes creates a bias in favor of interpreting quotes too generously. Even in the context of a narrative where Jesus’s abilities are real, believing in them on the basis of hearsay would still be a poor treatment of evidence; it’s not as if there weren’t plenty of other purported oracles and prophets whose powers were fake.
Well, imagine we’re not talking about the Bible, but some fantasy novel. I assumed that within that kind of a fictional context, there would be a big difference between a real prophet and the usual religious kooks, and the recognition of that difference would be at least somewhat contagious to people who haven’t witnessed it themselves.
But I suppose you’re right, I was being at least a little too generous. Interpreting that quote in terms of rational ability to respond to evidence was an entertaining stretch, but in the end it’s still a stretch.
Personally, I always favored this one:
Of course, this one nicely cuts both ways.
That’s not a bad one.
I always liked “You will know them by their fruit”.