Ok, I see where you got that perception of my view. (I apologize for what, in retrospect, seems like a somewhat more confrontational tone than I intended.)
The thing about the comment “at most this is doing no good, and it’s how I like to play” is that the part of it that makes a factual claim about the world outside the speaker’s head… is, in fact, wrong. The approach in question may be how they like to play — fine and well — but it’s doing worse than no good. That’s the bias described in the OP: believing that something is worthless, when in fact it is worse than worthless (where “worth” means “contribution to effectiveness” or something similar, not taking into account enjoyment value, etc.).
So what the person is saying is “I prefer this play style, which is not any less effective than the one you advocate”. If that were actually true, then I wouldn’t have any issues with it. I also (in a different way) would not have any issues if the person instead said “I prefer this play style, which I acknowledge is less effective than the one you advocate”. But as it is, the person labors under a misapprehension, and it affects their decisions; and insofar as we are interacting in the context of D&D (or whatever game), it also affects me.
I describe in this comment what exactly “the problem” is with being less than optimally effective. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
I think that we’re actually envisioning two different scenarios, and I think that difference is behind a lot of arguments similar to this one. You are thinking (yes?) of an experienced player, who has found a play style he enjoys; is aware of the tradeoffs, but judges them to be acceptable or inapplicable to his play context; and who plays with people who accept (and even possibly share) his play style.
In that case, if someone comes up to you and says “Hey, you’re doing it wrong! Your character could be doing better by selecting X, Y, and Z more powerful option!”, your reaction, quite naturally, is to say “I know what I want out of this game and I’m getting it, please go away”.
But that’s not the situation I’m thinking of. Instead, I’m thinking of an inexperienced player (or someone who’s less experienced/skilled than they think they are), who is not aware of the tradeoffs, possibly suffers from the sort of bias described in the OP, and, even more importantly, is playing with people in whose group the “alternative” (but actually just badly-thought-out) play style creates the sorts of problems I outline in my above-linked post.
My reaction to the former sort of player is to chat amiably about play style differences, and then not play with them. My reaction to the latter sort of player is to try to fix them.
We were imagining different scenarios, and I recognize that an inexperienced player who’s playing suboptimally can be detrimental to the team. It’s good to be aware that the tradeoffs exist, though I personally don’t like being lectured much about them. Even new players may not want to be fixed, either because they prefer to learn by themselves, or have already found a way to play that seems fun to them. Again to only speak for myself, when I’m learning a game and I’m not asking for help, I don’t want any, and advice would be detrimental to my enjoyment. But you are correct in saying that it’s good to correct misapprehensions. I guess this hits a bit close to home for me.
I have not yet become so advanced a gamer that I can min/max people. ;)
I didn’t mean I try to fix their characters (although I do help them do that as well, if they ask for my help/advice). I mean I try to fix them; that is, explain how the game works, dispel misconceptions, etc.
Ok, I see where you got that perception of my view. (I apologize for what, in retrospect, seems like a somewhat more confrontational tone than I intended.)
The thing about the comment “at most this is doing no good, and it’s how I like to play” is that the part of it that makes a factual claim about the world outside the speaker’s head… is, in fact, wrong. The approach in question may be how they like to play — fine and well — but it’s doing worse than no good. That’s the bias described in the OP: believing that something is worthless, when in fact it is worse than worthless (where “worth” means “contribution to effectiveness” or something similar, not taking into account enjoyment value, etc.).
So what the person is saying is “I prefer this play style, which is not any less effective than the one you advocate”. If that were actually true, then I wouldn’t have any issues with it. I also (in a different way) would not have any issues if the person instead said “I prefer this play style, which I acknowledge is less effective than the one you advocate”. But as it is, the person labors under a misapprehension, and it affects their decisions; and insofar as we are interacting in the context of D&D (or whatever game), it also affects me.
I describe in this comment what exactly “the problem” is with being less than optimally effective. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
I think that we’re actually envisioning two different scenarios, and I think that difference is behind a lot of arguments similar to this one. You are thinking (yes?) of an experienced player, who has found a play style he enjoys; is aware of the tradeoffs, but judges them to be acceptable or inapplicable to his play context; and who plays with people who accept (and even possibly share) his play style.
In that case, if someone comes up to you and says “Hey, you’re doing it wrong! Your character could be doing better by selecting X, Y, and Z more powerful option!”, your reaction, quite naturally, is to say “I know what I want out of this game and I’m getting it, please go away”.
But that’s not the situation I’m thinking of. Instead, I’m thinking of an inexperienced player (or someone who’s less experienced/skilled than they think they are), who is not aware of the tradeoffs, possibly suffers from the sort of bias described in the OP, and, even more importantly, is playing with people in whose group the “alternative” (but actually just badly-thought-out) play style creates the sorts of problems I outline in my above-linked post.
My reaction to the former sort of player is to chat amiably about play style differences, and then not play with them. My reaction to the latter sort of player is to try to fix them.
We were imagining different scenarios, and I recognize that an inexperienced player who’s playing suboptimally can be detrimental to the team. It’s good to be aware that the tradeoffs exist, though I personally don’t like being lectured much about them. Even new players may not want to be fixed, either because they prefer to learn by themselves, or have already found a way to play that seems fun to them. Again to only speak for myself, when I’m learning a game and I’m not asking for help, I don’t want any, and advice would be detrimental to my enjoyment. But you are correct in saying that it’s good to correct misapprehensions. I guess this hits a bit close to home for me.
I am not at all sure that all inexperienced players need to be “fixed” by minmaxing them.
I have not yet become so advanced a gamer that I can min/max people. ;)
I didn’t mean I try to fix their characters (although I do help them do that as well, if they ask for my help/advice). I mean I try to fix them; that is, explain how the game works, dispel misconceptions, etc.