I think this stems from the separation of ideas from the self, which is really the first step on the road to rationality. Anyone who hasn’t made that step feels like they are being personally attacked, and it isn’t an easy step to make.
Even if you’ve made the step in general, it doesn’t help when people use status-signaling language in their comments. e.g. “Have you thought of X?” is a lot better than, say, “Clearly you haven’t paid any attention to X”, if your goal is to actually improve discussion, rather than to get a charge from demolishing your opponent. (I suspect that the concept of a martial art of rationality doesn’t help with this, from a priming perspective.)
Setting a frame of etiquette that indicates we are all here to help people become rationalists rather than to show off our own skills at rationalism might help with this.
We are engaged in a collaborative effort that produces a webpage documenting the interplay of ideas. For example
The comment does not consider X
The reply does not explain why X is important
X is important because …
The argument for the importance of X is unconvincing because …
The flaw in the argument is easily remedied thus …
Addressing the commentor is a mistake. It invites the replier to read the commentors mind to the detriminate of responding to the actual words of the comment.
I’m sensitised to this from attempting to teach Go to beginners. It is Black’s move that makes bad shape/is too close to thickness/small/slow. If I have to correct a mistake I don’t say “your move was bad”, I say “black’s move is bad”. Black and White are characters in a collaborative fiction and me and my pupil are having an Author to Author conversation about how to maintain the dramatic tension and not just have White beat up Black.
In go, good move stretches as far as possible, but not further. Moving too far away from your group is just as bad as moving too close. If both players follow the flow of the game, neither can expect to crush the other, the game is symmetric. This is why you just take the board position and see how the game should flow from there. If your opponent is weak, he loses much because his moves don’t accomplish enough, and maybe even actively defeat each other. You can’t do anything but avoid falling prey for that same thing, making each of your move count as much as possible, being as sharp as possible.
It’s easiest to win against those players who have something like intention to kill. When they stretch further than they actually could, you can just lazily defend yourself. Defending is much easier than attacking in go. After a while, opponent has overstretched formations around the board, and you can start retaliating with no noticeable weaknesses, making the game totally one-sided. You just can’t do better than playing the sharpest move possible. If opponent answers well, the result is even, but that’s just how the game is.
Huh? The great-grandparent explicitly moves the topic to Go, and especially in the context of beginners, teaching students to win leads to poor habits later on. Jonii was trying to explain that in more detail.
As an opinionated member of LW: damnit, this is front page stuff, right here! This is bang on the money, and a hell of a lot less misogynistic than my own reactions to the post!
Even if you’ve made the step in general, it doesn’t help when people use status-signaling language in their comments. e.g. “Have you thought of X?” is a lot better than, say, “Clearly you haven’t paid any attention to X”, if your goal is to actually improve discussion, rather than to get a charge from demolishing your opponent. (I suspect that the concept of a martial art of rationality doesn’t help with this, from a priming perspective.)
Setting a frame of etiquette that indicates we are all here to help people become rationalists rather than to show off our own skills at rationalism might help with this.
We are engaged in a collaborative effort that produces a webpage documenting the interplay of ideas. For example
Addressing the commentor is a mistake. It invites the replier to read the commentors mind to the detriminate of responding to the actual words of the comment.
I’m sensitised to this from attempting to teach Go to beginners. It is Black’s move that makes bad shape/is too close to thickness/small/slow. If I have to correct a mistake I don’t say “your move was bad”, I say “black’s move is bad”. Black and White are characters in a collaborative fiction and me and my pupil are having an Author to Author conversation about how to maintain the dramatic tension and not just have White beat up Black.
Off-topic, but: surely you want to teach your Go student to win, not to have a close game? As per Eliezer’s favorite swordfighting quote?
In go, good move stretches as far as possible, but not further. Moving too far away from your group is just as bad as moving too close. If both players follow the flow of the game, neither can expect to crush the other, the game is symmetric. This is why you just take the board position and see how the game should flow from there. If your opponent is weak, he loses much because his moves don’t accomplish enough, and maybe even actively defeat each other. You can’t do anything but avoid falling prey for that same thing, making each of your move count as much as possible, being as sharp as possible.
It’s easiest to win against those players who have something like intention to kill. When they stretch further than they actually could, you can just lazily defend yourself. Defending is much easier than attacking in go. After a while, opponent has overstretched formations around the board, and you can start retaliating with no noticeable weaknesses, making the game totally one-sided. You just can’t do better than playing the sharpest move possible. If opponent answers well, the result is even, but that’s just how the game is.
Down-voted for being pedantic. The game of Go is not the point here.
Huh? The great-grandparent explicitly moves the topic to Go, and especially in the context of beginners, teaching students to win leads to poor habits later on. Jonii was trying to explain that in more detail.
As a student, I would love to see this.
As an argumentative SOB I need to consider this.
As an opinionated member of LW: damnit, this is front page stuff, right here! This is bang on the money, and a hell of a lot less misogynistic than my own reactions to the post!