So I shall try to describe the experience. I have a vivid sensation of my own presence, my own self. This is the thing I am pointing at when I say that I am conscious. Whether I sit in meditation or in the midst of life, there I am. Indeed, more vividly in meditation, because then, that is where I direct my attention. But only in dreamless sleep is it absent.
Can you be much more specific about what you mean?
For example, I have had dreams in which:
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, and aware that I was dreaming.
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, from the usual perspective, but unaware that I was dreaming.
I was someone else (with a different name, history, body etc.), walking around and doing stuff, from the usual perspective.
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, but viewed from a third-person vantage point.
There were some people. One of them stood out, and was the “focus”, but they felt more like the main character of a movie than “me”.
There were some people, and none of them stood out from one another.
In which of these cases was I a p-zombie?
However, dreams to me are vague and fuzzy in comparison to the real deal, being awake. While I’m awake, I typically have what could be called a “self” with the following properties:
Spatially, my self is located behind my eyes, I think?
My self comes with knowledge and expectations of my personality and behavior. Like “I’m a professional, I’ll behave professionally” when working, or “wheee, kitty!” when in proximity to a feline or image thereof.
My self comes with a mood. Like “I just woke up, and am groggy, ugghh”.
I think these properties are generally lacking when I dream, but it’s hard to tell. E.g., I recall dreams in which I was afraid, but not dreams in which I was grumpy or groggy.
After meditating for a long time, I sometimes enter a state of mind that lacks some of these properties:
I’m not sure about the spatial location thing?
The knowledge and expectation of my personality and behavior is still available, but feels less important and it feels more like I have a choice at each moment.
I tend to view moods as their component pieces. E.g. “I’m grumpy” becomes “physical sensation plus change in movement of attention plus bias in what thoughts arise”.
Beyond of these specifics, this states of mind tend to come with a very strange feeling of something missing that was ordinarily there.
Which of these properties, when lacking, makes me a p-zombie? Or have I not captured it; is this thing that I call a “self” totally different from what you mean by “qualia of consciousness”? Either way, what properties does your “qualia of consciousness” have?
Epistemic status: generally muddled about all of this; suspicious that my ontology is wrong; certain that most attempts at communication around this topic go poorly.
I wouldn’t say that any of those dream experiences have zombie nature. I have a similar range of dreams. All of my perceptions in dreams are rather muted compared with real life, although in the dream I am not aware of this, except for rare lucid ones. But always, there I am.
I never have an experience of myself not being there. I may not be turning my attention to it all the time, but like my left foot, there it is whenever I do.
I may not be turning my attention to it all the time, but like my left foot, there it is whenever I do.
When you do turn your attention to it, what is it like? Could you try to describe it in a way that would be useful for someone who does not experience it? For example,
Smell is a sensation, distinct from others like sight and sound. It detects particles in the air using the nose, and if you hold your nose than you mostly stop experiencing smell. Air in different places will smell differently. Smell emanates from certain objects, like wet socks or foods, and spreads out through the air. There are very many distinct smells; for example I can tell if popcorn is nearby from the smell, and I don’t think I’ve ever confused the smell of popcorn for anything else. While color can easily be separated into components (e.g. RGB), I’m not aware of any nice separation like that for smells. Smells can be pleasant or unpleasant: flowers really do smell good sometimes, and a smell can be so bad that it makes you feel nauseous and is painful to experience. People mostly agree on what smells are pleasant or unpleasant. If I enter a place with a different smell, I’ll tend to notice it immediately, then adjust to it and stop noticing it, unless it is particularly strong. I don’t recall ever having smelled something in a dream.
I’m asking because there is more than one thing that I have experienced that could be what you are describing, and I’m not yet sure which of these things you are trying to refer to, or if you’re referring to something else which I have not experienced and I’m a p-zombie.
What do you mean when any is particularised to the “there are a group of people and none stood out” that that is not a zombie nature?
The left foot thing made me think about the phantom hand illusion. Stroke your hand behind a mirror throught which you see a fake hand being similarly touched. One might come to feel that it is their hand. Some of the youtube videos have people drop hammers on the fake hand etc which makes it clear that selfpreservation is extended to that illusion.
If the self can be extended or redacted from limbs the dream state where it is removed from whole bodies seems like a state where there is atleast no spatial extension to the self. (You can still have knowledge of the objects because surprise you are omniscient about your dreams)
What do you mean when any is particularised to the “there are a group of people and none stood out” that that is not a zombie nature?
I have had a few dreams in which I had a viewpoint, but I was not any of the characters in the dream. Think of it as like a daydream about events not involving oneself. Nevertheless, this I-ness was still present.
Can you be much more specific about what you mean?
For example, I have had dreams in which:
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, and aware that I was dreaming.
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, from the usual perspective, but unaware that I was dreaming.
I was someone else (with a different name, history, body etc.), walking around and doing stuff, from the usual perspective.
I was me, walking around and doing stuff, but viewed from a third-person vantage point.
There were some people. One of them stood out, and was the “focus”, but they felt more like the main character of a movie than “me”.
There were some people, and none of them stood out from one another.
In which of these cases was I a p-zombie?
However, dreams to me are vague and fuzzy in comparison to the real deal, being awake. While I’m awake, I typically have what could be called a “self” with the following properties:
Spatially, my self is located behind my eyes, I think?
My self comes with knowledge and expectations of my personality and behavior. Like “I’m a professional, I’ll behave professionally” when working, or “wheee, kitty!” when in proximity to a feline or image thereof.
My self comes with a mood. Like “I just woke up, and am groggy, ugghh”.
I think these properties are generally lacking when I dream, but it’s hard to tell. E.g., I recall dreams in which I was afraid, but not dreams in which I was grumpy or groggy.
After meditating for a long time, I sometimes enter a state of mind that lacks some of these properties:
I’m not sure about the spatial location thing?
The knowledge and expectation of my personality and behavior is still available, but feels less important and it feels more like I have a choice at each moment.
I tend to view moods as their component pieces. E.g. “I’m grumpy” becomes “physical sensation plus change in movement of attention plus bias in what thoughts arise”.
Beyond of these specifics, this states of mind tend to come with a very strange feeling of something missing that was ordinarily there.
Which of these properties, when lacking, makes me a p-zombie? Or have I not captured it; is this thing that I call a “self” totally different from what you mean by “qualia of consciousness”? Either way, what properties does your “qualia of consciousness” have?
Epistemic status: generally muddled about all of this; suspicious that my ontology is wrong; certain that most attempts at communication around this topic go poorly.
I wouldn’t say that any of those dream experiences have zombie nature. I have a similar range of dreams. All of my perceptions in dreams are rather muted compared with real life, although in the dream I am not aware of this, except for rare lucid ones. But always, there I am.
I never have an experience of myself not being there. I may not be turning my attention to it all the time, but like my left foot, there it is whenever I do.
When you do turn your attention to it, what is it like? Could you try to describe it in a way that would be useful for someone who does not experience it? For example,
I’m asking because there is more than one thing that I have experienced that could be what you are describing, and I’m not yet sure which of these things you are trying to refer to, or if you’re referring to something else which I have not experienced and I’m a p-zombie.
What do you mean when any is particularised to the “there are a group of people and none stood out” that that is not a zombie nature?
The left foot thing made me think about the phantom hand illusion. Stroke your hand behind a mirror throught which you see a fake hand being similarly touched. One might come to feel that it is their hand. Some of the youtube videos have people drop hammers on the fake hand etc which makes it clear that selfpreservation is extended to that illusion.
If the self can be extended or redacted from limbs the dream state where it is removed from whole bodies seems like a state where there is atleast no spatial extension to the self. (You can still have knowledge of the objects because surprise you are omniscient about your dreams)
I have had a few dreams in which I had a viewpoint, but I was not any of the characters in the dream. Think of it as like a daydream about events not involving oneself. Nevertheless, this I-ness was still present.