I’m claiming is that people have tried to take advantage of me, including the examples I gave above, as well as every car salesman I’ve ever met. It’s not a high percentage—most people are good/neutral—but there are some people who are mildly amused by trying to hurt me.
I want you to acknowledge that the people in the examples I gave more likely than not tried to hurt me for reasons including their own amusement.
Ah. It looks to me that some of our disagreement, as is often the case, is a terminology problem.
You’ve been talking about sociopaths. “Sociopath” is a diagnosis of a mental illness, a personality disorder. You asked:
How sociopathic would an example have to be to meet your arbitrary criteria?
The answer to that is provided by the DSM. You can read it here. Sociopathy is not common.
I don’t think you are using this term properly. Instead I’d like to offer you two other alternative expressions.
On a colloquial level those you’ve been talking about are usually called assholes (and sometimes dicks/bitches as appropriate). Assholes are certainly plentiful in the world and complaints about being surrounded by dicks and assholes...
...must...not...make...bad...allegories...
...oh, where was I? sorry. So, there are lots of assholes and there are lots of complaints about them throughout the history in pretty much every society. You want to join the litany? Sure, the line is over there, please take a number, it is sevenbillionmumblemumble, wait for it to be called.
On a slightly more analytical level, I think a better word for you to use is amoral (or, maybe, immoral). It seems to me that you’re not bothered by these people’s lack of emotional reaction, you’re bothered by what they find fine to say and do—and that’s morality and ethics. You probably think that their morals are either absent or bad.
That is different from claims of sociopathy and—surprise—also very very common.
Why is it so important to you that the world is...what?
I am participating in a conversation on an internet forum. In the great scheme of things that’s not particularly important to me. But the (meta) subject of this discussion is accuracy of maps, not features of the territory.
I want better solutions for negotiating with and ideally changing sociopathy
If you want to learn negotiating, any B&N will have a shelf of books devoted to that. I think you’ll be able to find a variety of materials on LW as well which will be helpful.
By “changing sociopathy” I think you mean changing the morality of some people. I don’t think it’s going to be a fruitful endeavour, but that’s just me.
Who is truly unbiased and therefore in your view able to make reliable decisions?
Someone who is not too excitable and not emotionally invested in particular conclusions.
I could tell you some true stories about people who are much richer than you taking advantage of people in your class.
LOL. You are not referring to something like political assassination stories from Salon about how the Koch brothers orgasm every time their tentacles tighten a bit more around the throats of hard-working widows and orphans..?
And what is my “class”, by the way?
because these relationships are risky for the lower-status person
A relationship with another low-status person is risky, too, in different ways. If you are a trailer-park girl, is it really better for you to choose a trailer-park mate?
It sounds like you’re OK with polyamory with status differences. In that case, it appears the “winning” strategy is to build a harem of lower-status partners.
Interesting. That’s a… revealing comment. What “winning” means is defined by your values. Looking at myself (since I can speak for myself), I would not consider lording over a harem of low-status partners to be “winning”, in fact if I would probably actively try to avoid such a situation. But do you think that’s what “winning” is?
with a wife who’d rather be monogamous
LOL. And how do you know this, do tell… You’re not engaging is some blatant gender stereotyping, are you?
How sociopathic would an example have to be to meet your arbitrary criteria?
The answer to that is provided by the DSM. You can read it here.
I looked at your link (dsm.pdf at the psi.uba.ar website) and it doesn’t mention sociopathy. Do a word search. If you’re going to troll with sources, at least pick relevant ones.
Sociopathy is not common.
The DSM does say that antisocial personality disorder includes what used to be called sociopathy. Multiple sources indicate that about 0.6% of US adults have antisocial personality disorder. If you’ve met an unusually small number of people (which my limited interaction with you suggests is possible), for example only 2000 people, then the probability of you never having met a sociopath is about (.994)^(2000)=0.000006. In other words, the probability that you’re ignoring evidence is ~100%.
LOL
This is how you practice Rationality?? Protip: this is a bias called “emotional reasoning”.
there are lots of assholes and there are lots of complaints about them
I hoped LW would discuss clever ways to solve universal problems, such as death and assholery.
You are not referring to something like political assassination stories from Salon
Correct. Real GDP growth is minimal and real stock market values are flat/decreasing on average, while capital owners are becoming much richer. The law also heavily favors people who can afford expert lawyers.
And what is my “class”, by the way?
I’m guessing you’re white and male, average attractiveness/intelligence, early 20s, earning less than $50,000/year, and spend a lot of time unproductively on the Internet. So, higher than the global average, but not on track to ever reach the 1%. Am I right?
If you want to learn negotiating
I’m learning already! Based on your helpful input, I’ve found a solution to my problem and I’m enjoying some new-found freedom of expression.
any B&N
They haven’t gone bankrupt yet?
I think you’ll be able to find a variety of materials on LW as well which will be helpful.
Yup, if you’re a white male, being a narcissistic asshole without self-awareness is a winning strategy in most modern situations.
That’s a… revealing comment.
Hahaahaha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Nice rhetoric. Oh, my aching sides.
the (meta) subject of this discussion is accuracy of maps
Let me know when you’re ready to talk about the actual subject of this discussion.
I’m guessing you’re white and male, average attractiveness/intelligence, early 20s, earning less than $50,000/year, and spend a lot of time unproductively on the Internet. So, higher than the global average, but not on track to ever reach the 1%. Am I right?
Lumifer is distinctly above average in intelligence. That, combined with what I infer is somewhat more experience at the game, is why he is beating you at the one-upmanship contest you two are having. He is coming off less badly despite displaying more antagonism. Feel free to keep practicing, but note that you can tell from the voting patterns that the audience has tired of the show (downvoting both sides) so it may be better to discuss with different, more cooperative, discussion partners for a while.
If you’re going to troll with sources … The DSM does say that antisocial personality disorder includes what used to be called sociopathy.
You look confused. So, was I trolling with sources or my link to the antisocial personality disorder was actually relevant to the discussion of sociopathy?
If you’ve met an unusually small number of people (which my limited interaction with you suggests is possible), for example only 2000 people, then the probability of you never having met a sociopath is about (.994)^(2000)=0.000006. In other words, the probability that you’re ignoring evidence is ~100%.
Not only confused, but with reading comprehension problems, too.
I said: “I don’t have sociopaths either in my social circle or among my co-workers—at least easily recognizable ones.” That is not talking about how many people I have met. My social circle + co-workers is much smaller than 2000 people. I have certainly met sociopaths, in fact one works nearby and I see him on a regular basis. But he is neither part of my social circle nor a co-worker.
This is how you practice Rationality??
Laughing is an excellent way to practice rationality. As to the capital-R Rationality, I don’t do that.
real stock market values are flat/decreasing on average, while capital owners are becoming much richer
The first part of that sentence does not exactly match the second part… X-)
I’m guessing …. Am I right?
Wrong, of course.
if you’re a white male, being a narcissistic asshole without self-awareness is a winning strategy in most modern situations.
LOL. So, since rationality = winning, you are claiming that the rational thing for a white male to do is to become a narcissistic asshole. An interesting point of view.
Ah. It looks to me that some of our disagreement, as is often the case, is a terminology problem.
You’ve been talking about sociopaths. “Sociopath” is a diagnosis of a mental illness, a personality disorder. You asked:
The answer to that is provided by the DSM. You can read it here. Sociopathy is not common.
I don’t think you are using this term properly. Instead I’d like to offer you two other alternative expressions.
On a colloquial level those you’ve been talking about are usually called assholes (and sometimes dicks/bitches as appropriate). Assholes are certainly plentiful in the world and complaints about being surrounded by dicks and assholes...
...must...not...make...bad...allegories...
...oh, where was I? sorry. So, there are lots of assholes and there are lots of complaints about them throughout the history in pretty much every society. You want to join the litany? Sure, the line is over there, please take a number, it is sevenbillionmumblemumble, wait for it to be called.
On a slightly more analytical level, I think a better word for you to use is amoral (or, maybe, immoral). It seems to me that you’re not bothered by these people’s lack of emotional reaction, you’re bothered by what they find fine to say and do—and that’s morality and ethics. You probably think that their morals are either absent or bad.
That is different from claims of sociopathy and—surprise—also very very common.
I am participating in a conversation on an internet forum. In the great scheme of things that’s not particularly important to me. But the (meta) subject of this discussion is accuracy of maps, not features of the territory.
If you want to learn negotiating, any B&N will have a shelf of books devoted to that. I think you’ll be able to find a variety of materials on LW as well which will be helpful.
By “changing sociopathy” I think you mean changing the morality of some people. I don’t think it’s going to be a fruitful endeavour, but that’s just me.
Someone who is not too excitable and not emotionally invested in particular conclusions.
LOL. You are not referring to something like political assassination stories from Salon about how the Koch brothers orgasm every time their tentacles tighten a bit more around the throats of hard-working widows and orphans..?
And what is my “class”, by the way?
A relationship with another low-status person is risky, too, in different ways. If you are a trailer-park girl, is it really better for you to choose a trailer-park mate?
Interesting. That’s a… revealing comment. What “winning” means is defined by your values. Looking at myself (since I can speak for myself), I would not consider lording over a harem of low-status partners to be “winning”, in fact if I would probably actively try to avoid such a situation. But do you think that’s what “winning” is?
LOL. And how do you know this, do tell… You’re not engaging is some blatant gender stereotyping, are you?
I looked at your link (dsm.pdf at the psi.uba.ar website) and it doesn’t mention sociopathy. Do a word search. If you’re going to troll with sources, at least pick relevant ones.
The DSM does say that antisocial personality disorder includes what used to be called sociopathy. Multiple sources indicate that about 0.6% of US adults have antisocial personality disorder. If you’ve met an unusually small number of people (which my limited interaction with you suggests is possible), for example only 2000 people, then the probability of you never having met a sociopath is about (.994)^(2000)=0.000006. In other words, the probability that you’re ignoring evidence is ~100%.
This is how you practice Rationality?? Protip: this is a bias called “emotional reasoning”.
I hoped LW would discuss clever ways to solve universal problems, such as death and assholery.
Correct. Real GDP growth is minimal and real stock market values are flat/decreasing on average, while capital owners are becoming much richer. The law also heavily favors people who can afford expert lawyers.
I’m guessing you’re white and male, average attractiveness/intelligence, early 20s, earning less than $50,000/year, and spend a lot of time unproductively on the Internet. So, higher than the global average, but not on track to ever reach the 1%. Am I right?
I’m learning already! Based on your helpful input, I’ve found a solution to my problem and I’m enjoying some new-found freedom of expression.
They haven’t gone bankrupt yet?
Yup, if you’re a white male, being a narcissistic asshole without self-awareness is a winning strategy in most modern situations.
Hahaahaha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Nice rhetoric. Oh, my aching sides.
Let me know when you’re ready to talk about the actual subject of this discussion.
Lumifer is distinctly above average in intelligence. That, combined with what I infer is somewhat more experience at the game, is why he is beating you at the one-upmanship contest you two are having. He is coming off less badly despite displaying more antagonism. Feel free to keep practicing, but note that you can tell from the voting patterns that the audience has tired of the show (downvoting both sides) so it may be better to discuss with different, more cooperative, discussion partners for a while.
You look confused. So, was I trolling with sources or my link to the antisocial personality disorder was actually relevant to the discussion of sociopathy?
Not only confused, but with reading comprehension problems, too.
I said: “I don’t have sociopaths either in my social circle or among my co-workers—at least easily recognizable ones.” That is not talking about how many people I have met. My social circle + co-workers is much smaller than 2000 people. I have certainly met sociopaths, in fact one works nearby and I see him on a regular basis. But he is neither part of my social circle nor a co-worker.
Laughing is an excellent way to practice rationality. As to the capital-R Rationality, I don’t do that.
The first part of that sentence does not exactly match the second part… X-)
Wrong, of course.
LOL. So, since rationality = winning, you are claiming that the rational thing for a white male to do is to become a narcissistic asshole. An interesting point of view.
Which is..?
It still sounds like you’re trolling. Let me know when you’re ready to have a real discussion, and apologize for trolling.