“So, sure, lets’ put the idea of race to bed and start with killing affirmative action. You’re good with that?”
This is the point where I say “politics is the mind killer” and discount all of your politically charged conclusions, then?
“Have you actually seem Somalis? They do not look like the stereotypical African blacks at all.”
My point exactly. Yet they are universally considered “black” by people in your and my culture because of the arbitrary (which word I do mean quite literally) choice to see skin color as one of the two supremely defining qualities by which we “know” race. If certain facial features were (just as arbitrarily) selected, Somalis would be in the same race as Samis.
Another example: By standards of race, Native Australians are morphologically black (show an unlabeled photo of a black haired Aboriginal to a North American- he will say “black” if asked to assign a race) as are Kalahari Bushmen. I can not think of two more genetically divergent populations. Yes, human genetic diversity exists. However, current ideas of race have so little genetic basis as to be useless, and are mired in bias and produce bias in our modern thinking (mine, too). It is foolish to cling to the primitive beliefs of your ancestors to address problems or inquiries in the modern world.
I use the term “wholehearted accept” in the context of isolated scientific findings. In other words: do I accept that this individual study proves or significantly suggests that it says what it’s authors say it does? I have expertise in perhaps 5-6 highly specific areas of study to the extent that I can competently evaluate the merits of published research on my own. Outside of those areas I would be a fool to think I could do so without some recourse to expert analysis to explain the minutia that only years of experience can bring. Otherwise I might as well join the young earthers and anti-vaccinationists.
This is the point where I say “politics is the mind killer”
Not necessarily, but I’m curious whether you’re willing to chomp down on bullets.
However, current ideas of race have so little genetic basis as to be useless
I am not particularly attached to the strawful “popular” ideas of race that you are so fond of skewering. But are you willing to admit that large groups of humans can be significantly different on the “genetic basis”?
Outside of those areas I would be a fool to think I could do so without some recourse to expert analysis
The issue is bias, incentives, credibility, trust. “Some recourse” is different from “defer to the experts whatever they say”. I am not a fan of high-priesthood treatment of science.
“I’m curious whether you’re willing to chomp down on bullets.”
Since you’re happy to go off topic, and your other posts suggest you’ve definitely got a dog in this fight already, would you agree or disagree with the following statement:
Based on things I’ve read on the internet (Cochrane) (not to be confused with the Cochrane Library that actually produces meta-analyses, just some guy named Cochrane who can’t land a tenure track job teaching physics) regarding brain size and IQ test results, I believe that it is more probable than not that Black People are less intelligent than White People, that the jury’s still out on Asian People, and that this is due in no small part to genetics.
“I am not particularly attached to the strawful “popular” ideas of race.”
That is the very definition of race. That is what the term means.
“I am not a fan of high-priesthood treatment of science.”
When I meet the strawman who does I’ll let him know.
This really takes me back to a month or so I spent trolling Christian Identity White Supremacists back in the day, not sure if I should be surprised to find it here or not. Good luck with your confirmation bias.
Based on things I’ve read on the internet (Cochrane) (not to be confused with the Cochrane Library that actually produces meta-analyses, just some guy named Cochrane who can’t land a tenure track job teaching physics) regarding brain size and IQ test results, I believe that it is more probable than not that Black People are less intelligent than White People, that the jury’s still out on Asian People, and that this is due in no small part to genetics.
You’re much confused in the beginning, but it will take too long to sort you our, so I’ll cut to the chase.
I believe that blacks (the Sub-Saharan genetic pool) have a lower average IQ than whites (European genetic pool), by about one standard deviation (15 points). The jury is not out on Asians—East Asians, specifically Chinese Han, have an average IQ higher than whites, by about 10 points, if I remember correctly. Moreover, Ashkenazi Jews also have a higher average IQ than whites.
That is the very definition of race.
You seem to be… limited in your understanding of how people use words.
Christian Identity White Supremacists
Woot! I think it’s the first time I’ve been called that. It’s so new and exciting! Tell me about myself, I’m all ears.
My impression is that Usul was interested not only in your opinion about racial IQ variations, but also in where your information comes from.
I think it’s the first time I’ve been called that.
He didn’t call you a Christian Identity white supremacist, he said this discussion reminds him of arguing with Christian Identity white supremacists. Those are very different things.
(You don’t seem particularly like a Christian Identity white supremacist to me, for what it’s worth. I think Usul is thinking too impressionistically.)
My impression is that Usul was interested not only in your opinion about racial IQ variations, but also in where your information comes from.
My impression is that Usul is interested in neither of those things as he clearly went into snide mode.
He didn’t call you a Christian Identity white supremacist
Let me quote him with the relevant part bolded:
…trolling Christian Identity White Supremacists back in the day, not sure if I should be surprised to find it here or not.
Instead of calling me a nutcase waiting for the Rapture while sitting in an Idaho bunker surrounded by beans and ammo, he’s just being passive-aggressive.
That is the very definition of race. That is what the term means.
If you look at genetics the difference between different parts of Africa is higher than the different between different non-African groups.
If you think that Whites and Asians have a different race but all Blacks have the same race than your concept of race is cultural and not based on biology.
That is the very definition of race. That is what the term means.
I think there are a number of people on LW who will dispute that; who will say something like this. “Yes, there are fuzzy popular uses of the word and if you take them too seriously you will say silly things. But it is also the case that there are important genetic differences between human subpopulations, and that these correlate to some extent with those fuzzy popular ideas about race.”
That seems to me to be a position that is not at all refuted by saying that popular use of “race” is fuzzy and that the things commonly called “races” don’t correspond to well defined biological groupings. (It might be refuted by other means, but that would be more work.)
“So, sure, lets’ put the idea of race to bed and start with killing affirmative action. You’re good with that?”
This is the point where I say “politics is the mind killer” and discount all of your politically charged conclusions, then?
“Have you actually seem Somalis? They do not look like the stereotypical African blacks at all.”
My point exactly. Yet they are universally considered “black” by people in your and my culture because of the arbitrary (which word I do mean quite literally) choice to see skin color as one of the two supremely defining qualities by which we “know” race. If certain facial features were (just as arbitrarily) selected, Somalis would be in the same race as Samis.
Another example: By standards of race, Native Australians are morphologically black (show an unlabeled photo of a black haired Aboriginal to a North American- he will say “black” if asked to assign a race) as are Kalahari Bushmen. I can not think of two more genetically divergent populations. Yes, human genetic diversity exists. However, current ideas of race have so little genetic basis as to be useless, and are mired in bias and produce bias in our modern thinking (mine, too). It is foolish to cling to the primitive beliefs of your ancestors to address problems or inquiries in the modern world.
I use the term “wholehearted accept” in the context of isolated scientific findings. In other words: do I accept that this individual study proves or significantly suggests that it says what it’s authors say it does? I have expertise in perhaps 5-6 highly specific areas of study to the extent that I can competently evaluate the merits of published research on my own. Outside of those areas I would be a fool to think I could do so without some recourse to expert analysis to explain the minutia that only years of experience can bring. Otherwise I might as well join the young earthers and anti-vaccinationists.
Not necessarily, but I’m curious whether you’re willing to chomp down on bullets.
I am not particularly attached to the strawful “popular” ideas of race that you are so fond of skewering. But are you willing to admit that large groups of humans can be significantly different on the “genetic basis”?
The issue is bias, incentives, credibility, trust. “Some recourse” is different from “defer to the experts whatever they say”. I am not a fan of high-priesthood treatment of science.
“I’m curious whether you’re willing to chomp down on bullets.”
Since you’re happy to go off topic, and your other posts suggest you’ve definitely got a dog in this fight already, would you agree or disagree with the following statement:
Based on things I’ve read on the internet (Cochrane) (not to be confused with the Cochrane Library that actually produces meta-analyses, just some guy named Cochrane who can’t land a tenure track job teaching physics) regarding brain size and IQ test results, I believe that it is more probable than not that Black People are less intelligent than White People, that the jury’s still out on Asian People, and that this is due in no small part to genetics.
“I am not particularly attached to the strawful “popular” ideas of race.”
That is the very definition of race. That is what the term means.
“I am not a fan of high-priesthood treatment of science.”
When I meet the strawman who does I’ll let him know.
This really takes me back to a month or so I spent trolling Christian Identity White Supremacists back in the day, not sure if I should be surprised to find it here or not. Good luck with your confirmation bias.
You’re much confused in the beginning, but it will take too long to sort you our, so I’ll cut to the chase.
I believe that blacks (the Sub-Saharan genetic pool) have a lower average IQ than whites (European genetic pool), by about one standard deviation (15 points). The jury is not out on Asians—East Asians, specifically Chinese Han, have an average IQ higher than whites, by about 10 points, if I remember correctly. Moreover, Ashkenazi Jews also have a higher average IQ than whites.
You seem to be… limited in your understanding of how people use words.
Woot! I think it’s the first time I’ve been called that. It’s so new and exciting! Tell me about myself, I’m all ears.
My impression is that Usul was interested not only in your opinion about racial IQ variations, but also in where your information comes from.
He didn’t call you a Christian Identity white supremacist, he said this discussion reminds him of arguing with Christian Identity white supremacists. Those are very different things.
(You don’t seem particularly like a Christian Identity white supremacist to me, for what it’s worth. I think Usul is thinking too impressionistically.)
My impression is that Usul is interested in neither of those things as he clearly went into snide mode.
Let me quote him with the relevant part bolded:
Instead of calling me a nutcase waiting for the Rapture while sitting in an Idaho bunker surrounded by beans and ammo, he’s just being passive-aggressive.
Going into snide mode is quite consistent with still wanting to understand the other guy’s position and where it came from.
My impression is that “it” wasn’t meant to mean “the Christian Identity movement” but “racial prejudice”.
If you look at genetics the difference between different parts of Africa is higher than the different between different non-African groups.
If you think that Whites and Asians have a different race but all Blacks have the same race than your concept of race is cultural and not based on biology.
I think there are a number of people on LW who will dispute that; who will say something like this. “Yes, there are fuzzy popular uses of the word and if you take them too seriously you will say silly things. But it is also the case that there are important genetic differences between human subpopulations, and that these correlate to some extent with those fuzzy popular ideas about race.”
That seems to me to be a position that is not at all refuted by saying that popular use of “race” is fuzzy and that the things commonly called “races” don’t correspond to well defined biological groupings. (It might be refuted by other means, but that would be more work.)