Your post reminds me of this quote about how a teacher’s assumptions affect identity:
“When those who have the power to name and to socially construct reality choose not to see you or hear you … when someone with the authority of a teacher, say, describes the world and you are not in it, there is a moment of psychic disequilibrium, as if you looked in the mirror and saw nothing.”
—Adrienne Rich, 1984
I read this and connected it to the horrible feeling I got from trying to look at myself during my first attempts to grok the world from a stereotypical bible-belt perspective. I got an Error Message: People who have yet to hear god’s word, and satan-lovers who willfully defy or ignore god, sure, but to simply not believe any of it just wasn’t in the domain. I can’t think of non-computer/mathematic terms to describe looking at the blank spot, and those don’t capture the psychological horror of finding yourself in it. (Or rather, not finding.)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came
not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth
him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Insofar as that quote touches me, it mainly gives me the vaguely oily feeling of ingratiation that I’ve come to associate with the Dark Arts. It stops short of making any explicit prescriptions, but its framing is very carefully tailored: authority, identity, implications of threat and powerlessness.
Long story short, I’d be very careful about holding statements like that one up as inspiringly rational.
As I read this quote, I was reminded of what it felt like to be (repressed) homosexual in a strongly heteronormative culture. The act of claiming my sexuality could only happen outside of that culture (in Europe, for me), and when I came back home, I became profoundly depressed, convinced I would never amount to anything.
Gay people are often surprised at how their internal turmoil, which seems so particular and special, turns out to be the usual result of growing up queer in a straight society. We’re surprised because our experience is so different from what most people around us seem to be feeling.
So, I would say Rich was not generalizing from one example, but was talking about the generality of the experience of the ignored minority, and trying to convey that experience to an audience who would be largely ignorant of that feeling of psychic non-existence. They have been affirmed by whatever presumptions are prevalent in their society, be they heteronormative, ethnic, racial, religious or whatever.
So, this is a great rationality quote, because it reminds us all (gay people included) to challenge ourselves constantly to recognize the lenses through which we understand reality, and to try to sort out what is real from what is cultural. People, especially young people, kill themselves because of this. Challenging our cultural assumptions can save lives.
And some people still believe that people choose to be homosexual.
If that were so, why would teenagers commit suicide instead of choosing to be heterosexual.
To me, a gay man is just less competition, and since lots of women are not interested in me anyway, what difference does it make if some of them are gay?
Inherent flaws of moral codes based on non-deterministic ideas of free will aside, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a version of that argument where the two sides admitted that they were using different definitions of “be homosexual”.
I have. I’ve was a member of a Bible club at work for a year. I wasn’t Christian, but I chose to participate in the club.
Some folks in that club said they had no problem at all with the person who is attracted to the same sex. The problem lay in the conceit that the homosexual’s purpose and burden in life was to either overcome their sexual proclivities or to forgo sex altogether, giving their life to God in some other way than marriage and procreation.
So, the anti-gay stance was that it’s a sin to act homosexually.
To be inside a homosexual brain is to feel trapped and even somewhat absent from reality until one acts on, or at least admits and attempts to embrace, this cognitive process that values the sexes in a way fundamentally different from the norm for one’s gender. I admit that “being homosexual” is, for me, a facet of my mind that I can’t change, and those fundamentalists I talked to admitted to understanding that state of mind, but that the sin lies only in seducing another man (being seduced by another man is seducing him, just to clear that up), and that is what makes a person homosexual.
I think it’s quite rational to point out that people have psychological and physiological reaction to “inclusion” and attention. The reaction that people have may not be inherently rational, but identifying it seems quite rational to me.
Now, the way that quote is phrased is not in a rationalist manner, and Rich may not be entirely rational about it: she seems to be saying “this is what it is” without analysis or potential solution. It would take a good strong rationalist to be able to be in the situation Rich describes and not feel marginalized, since the reaction is probably an instinctual one.
I was thinking more of warpforge’s quote than RichardKennaway’s. The Chesterton quote seems reasonable, although I’d dearly love to see some clever sociologist work out a way of actually testing it.
Your post reminds me of this quote about how a teacher’s assumptions affect identity:
“When those who have the power to name and to socially construct reality choose not to see you or hear you … when someone with the authority of a teacher, say, describes the world and you are not in it, there is a moment of psychic disequilibrium, as if you looked in the mirror and saw nothing.” —Adrienne Rich, 1984
I read this and connected it to the horrible feeling I got from trying to look at myself during my first attempts to grok the world from a stereotypical bible-belt perspective. I got an Error Message: People who have yet to hear god’s word, and satan-lovers who willfully defy or ignore god, sure, but to simply not believe any of it just wasn’t in the domain. I can’t think of non-computer/mathematic terms to describe looking at the blank spot, and those don’t capture the psychological horror of finding yourself in it. (Or rather, not finding.)
“If a man heareth me and believeth not, I shall not judge him.” or words to that effect.
I think it’s somewhere around John 12, or is that Luke 12?, quoting Jesus.
Sorry, it’s been a while since I last checked.
John 12:
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Insofar as that quote touches me, it mainly gives me the vaguely oily feeling of ingratiation that I’ve come to associate with the Dark Arts. It stops short of making any explicit prescriptions, but its framing is very carefully tailored: authority, identity, implications of threat and powerlessness.
Long story short, I’d be very careful about holding statements like that one up as inspiringly rational.
Rich may well be generalizing from one example. On the other hand, people do affect each other quite a bit.
As I read this quote, I was reminded of what it felt like to be (repressed) homosexual in a strongly heteronormative culture. The act of claiming my sexuality could only happen outside of that culture (in Europe, for me), and when I came back home, I became profoundly depressed, convinced I would never amount to anything.
Gay people are often surprised at how their internal turmoil, which seems so particular and special, turns out to be the usual result of growing up queer in a straight society. We’re surprised because our experience is so different from what most people around us seem to be feeling.
So, I would say Rich was not generalizing from one example, but was talking about the generality of the experience of the ignored minority, and trying to convey that experience to an audience who would be largely ignorant of that feeling of psychic non-existence. They have been affirmed by whatever presumptions are prevalent in their society, be they heteronormative, ethnic, racial, religious or whatever.
So, this is a great rationality quote, because it reminds us all (gay people included) to challenge ourselves constantly to recognize the lenses through which we understand reality, and to try to sort out what is real from what is cultural. People, especially young people, kill themselves because of this. Challenging our cultural assumptions can save lives.
And some people still believe that people choose to be homosexual.
If that were so, why would teenagers commit suicide instead of choosing to be heterosexual.
To me, a gay man is just less competition, and since lots of women are not interested in me anyway, what difference does it make if some of them are gay?
Inherent flaws of moral codes based on non-deterministic ideas of free will aside, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a version of that argument where the two sides admitted that they were using different definitions of “be homosexual”.
I have. I’ve was a member of a Bible club at work for a year. I wasn’t Christian, but I chose to participate in the club.
Some folks in that club said they had no problem at all with the person who is attracted to the same sex. The problem lay in the conceit that the homosexual’s purpose and burden in life was to either overcome their sexual proclivities or to forgo sex altogether, giving their life to God in some other way than marriage and procreation.
So, the anti-gay stance was that it’s a sin to act homosexually.
To be inside a homosexual brain is to feel trapped and even somewhat absent from reality until one acts on, or at least admits and attempts to embrace, this cognitive process that values the sexes in a way fundamentally different from the norm for one’s gender. I admit that “being homosexual” is, for me, a facet of my mind that I can’t change, and those fundamentalists I talked to admitted to understanding that state of mind, but that the sin lies only in seducing another man (being seduced by another man is seducing him, just to clear that up), and that is what makes a person homosexual.
I think it’s quite rational to point out that people have psychological and physiological reaction to “inclusion” and attention. The reaction that people have may not be inherently rational, but identifying it seems quite rational to me.
Now, the way that quote is phrased is not in a rationalist manner, and Rich may not be entirely rational about it: she seems to be saying “this is what it is” without analysis or potential solution. It would take a good strong rationalist to be able to be in the situation Rich describes and not feel marginalized, since the reaction is probably an instinctual one.
Sorry for the ambiguity—Adrienne Rich is a woman.
I shouldn’t have assumed otherwise! Previous post edited.
I was thinking more of warpforge’s quote than RichardKennaway’s. The Chesterton quote seems reasonable, although I’d dearly love to see some clever sociologist work out a way of actually testing it.