The text can be taken in a way where the need of coffee is because of a unreasonable demand or previous screwup.
Ah. To me that interpretation misses the core point, so it didn’t cross my mind.
Judgments like “unreasonable” and “screwup” are coming from inside an adaptive-entropic system. That doesn’t define how that kind of entropy works. The mechanism is just true. It’s neutral, the way reality is neutral.
The need for coffee (in the example I gave) arises because of a tension between two adaptive systems: the one being identified with, and the one being imposed upon. And there’s a cost to that tension, such as the need for coffee.
I don’t feel this way about something like, say, taking oral vitamin D in the winter. That’s not in opposition to some adaptive subsystem in me or in the world. It’s actually me adapting to my constraints.
If someone’s relationship to caffeine were like that, I wouldn’t say it’s entropy-inducing.
But when it is entropy-inducing, it’s because of this “imposing an idea” structure.
…and that isn’t to say it’s a mistake! That, too, is imposing an idea of how things should be. The whole reason anyone incurs entropy is because that’s literally the best move available to them best as they can tell. Doing anything else would (apparently) be worse for them.
There’s no blame or “should” here. Just description of cause and effect — which, yes, bears on what what people might want to do, but doesn’t start from there. Cannot start from there.
…executive function parts of the brain are too weak/tired [in ADHD].
Cool. As I said in another comment, from this I’m taking that ADHD (as you’re talking about it) is about having a particular kind of reduced adaptive capacity.
My eyes still go to “Why are they too weak/tired?” and “What’s the ‘too’ in comparison to?” The former is about causation chains, because if there’s a limitation on adaptive capacity that a system can be aware of, it will want to route around it. So why hasn’t an effective route around it been found? What’s limiting the meta-adaptive capacity? This chain often leads to noticing spots of adaptive entropy in the environment.
And the “What’s the ‘too’ in comparison to?” often leads to noticing how people take on the adaptive entropy of the larger context.
But sometimes limited adaptive capacity is just that. Like, humans die of old age, and sure we might be able to engineer our way around that eventually and our inability to take that engineering seriously is because of collective adaptive entropy… but no amount of sitting alone in a cave meditating is going to make you biologically immortal. That’s just an adaptive limitation.
I’m hearing you say that ADHD is like that, and that an ADHD person’s use of caffeine is therefore different from the case I named in the OP.
If so: cool.
I wonder how much of this whole topic coming up is a matter of taking “You’ve incurred adaptive entropy” as a matter of blame or shame. Like I’m saying it’s bad or wrong to do this. And the objection is basically “ADHD folk need to engage with caffeine or something like it, so they shouldn’t be blamed!”
FWIW, I promise that’s not what I mean. Not even a little bit. Zero blame. Truly.
I don’t feel this way about something like, say, taking oral vitamin D in the winter. That’s not in opposition to some adaptive subsystem in me or in the world. It’s actually me adapting to my constraints.
If someone’s relationship to caffeine were like that, I wouldn’t say it’s entropy-inducing.
I think this answers a question / request for clarification I had. So now I don’t have to ask.
(The question was something like “But sometimes I use caffeine because I don’t want to fall asleep while I’m driving (and things outside my controll made it so that doing a few hundred of driving km now-ish is the best option I can see)”).
I believe your goal is not to blame. But having good intentions does not mean you have good effects (pavements and all). It does ward off malicioussness but does not guarantee that the assistance helps. Being curious about the effects of you actions helps. But rare side effects might not be obvious at all. Rejecting feedback with “I couldn’t have known” can prevent knowing the bits for the future.
I don’t feel this way about something like, say, taking oral vitamin D in the winter. That’s not in opposition to some adaptive subsystem in me or in the world. It’s actually me adapting to my constraints.
With this the intention probably is not to disinclude people living in equatorial areas. But if winter gets as much light as summer this kind of D-vitamin pattern would not make sense. So even if we do not intend to and even if we are aware what is going on this kind of analog does disinclude equatorial people.
If you lived in constant shade then it could make sense to take D-vitamin both in summer and winter. In an important way the coffee is like vitamin-D for (some of) ADHD situations. So largely for “If so: cool.” indeed that way.
(stickler for possibility claims: If one thinks that AGI can make biological immortality and that meditation can lead to a working AGI scheme then meditation can lead to biological immortality (but I know what that passage gets at))
If standard lectures last for 2 hours and a anomalous lecture lasts for 4 hours and in the last hour nobody can follow anything, it tends to be that the diagnosis is that the lecture is too long. If a student can only pay attention for the first hour of a 2 hour lecture the diagnosis tends to be that the student is too impatient.
I would not say that if somebody has low muscle mass that their capacity to change their muscle mass is impaired (that there is some problem of them using a weightlifting gym). “Do you even lift?” implies that (all) humans should lift. Not everything is worth changing and possible to change. I don’t have great pointers on more neboulous feeling where I think others are based in their reactions. I know the thing was meant conditionally. But bits like
And yeah, I do think it’s the right word, which is why I’m picking it. Please notice the framing effect, and adjust yourself as needed.
and
Oops
mean stuff. (if you leave your terms open then you can’t effectively say that you mean 0 of something. One risks meaning slightly bad stuff for vague terms. That can be an understandble tradeoff to make communication possible at all (or be at some required handiness bar))
Ah. To me that interpretation misses the core point, so it didn’t cross my mind.
Judgments like “unreasonable” and “screwup” are coming from inside an adaptive-entropic system. That doesn’t define how that kind of entropy works. The mechanism is just true. It’s neutral, the way reality is neutral.
The need for coffee (in the example I gave) arises because of a tension between two adaptive systems: the one being identified with, and the one being imposed upon. And there’s a cost to that tension, such as the need for coffee.
I don’t feel this way about something like, say, taking oral vitamin D in the winter. That’s not in opposition to some adaptive subsystem in me or in the world. It’s actually me adapting to my constraints.
If someone’s relationship to caffeine were like that, I wouldn’t say it’s entropy-inducing.
But when it is entropy-inducing, it’s because of this “imposing an idea” structure.
…and that isn’t to say it’s a mistake! That, too, is imposing an idea of how things should be. The whole reason anyone incurs entropy is because that’s literally the best move available to them best as they can tell. Doing anything else would (apparently) be worse for them.
There’s no blame or “should” here. Just description of cause and effect — which, yes, bears on what what people might want to do, but doesn’t start from there. Cannot start from there.
Cool. As I said in another comment, from this I’m taking that ADHD (as you’re talking about it) is about having a particular kind of reduced adaptive capacity.
My eyes still go to “Why are they too weak/tired?” and “What’s the ‘too’ in comparison to?” The former is about causation chains, because if there’s a limitation on adaptive capacity that a system can be aware of, it will want to route around it. So why hasn’t an effective route around it been found? What’s limiting the meta-adaptive capacity? This chain often leads to noticing spots of adaptive entropy in the environment.
And the “What’s the ‘too’ in comparison to?” often leads to noticing how people take on the adaptive entropy of the larger context.
But sometimes limited adaptive capacity is just that. Like, humans die of old age, and sure we might be able to engineer our way around that eventually and our inability to take that engineering seriously is because of collective adaptive entropy… but no amount of sitting alone in a cave meditating is going to make you biologically immortal. That’s just an adaptive limitation.
I’m hearing you say that ADHD is like that, and that an ADHD person’s use of caffeine is therefore different from the case I named in the OP.
If so: cool.
I wonder how much of this whole topic coming up is a matter of taking “You’ve incurred adaptive entropy” as a matter of blame or shame. Like I’m saying it’s bad or wrong to do this. And the objection is basically “ADHD folk need to engage with caffeine or something like it, so they shouldn’t be blamed!”
FWIW, I promise that’s not what I mean. Not even a little bit. Zero blame. Truly.
I think this answers a question / request for clarification I had. So now I don’t have to ask.
(The question was something like “But sometimes I use caffeine because I don’t want to fall asleep while I’m driving (and things outside my controll made it so that doing a few hundred of driving km now-ish is the best option I can see)”).
I believe your goal is not to blame. But having good intentions does not mean you have good effects (pavements and all). It does ward off malicioussness but does not guarantee that the assistance helps. Being curious about the effects of you actions helps. But rare side effects might not be obvious at all. Rejecting feedback with “I couldn’t have known” can prevent knowing the bits for the future.
With this the intention probably is not to disinclude people living in equatorial areas. But if winter gets as much light as summer this kind of D-vitamin pattern would not make sense. So even if we do not intend to and even if we are aware what is going on this kind of analog does disinclude equatorial people.
If you lived in constant shade then it could make sense to take D-vitamin both in summer and winter. In an important way the coffee is like vitamin-D for (some of) ADHD situations. So largely for “If so: cool.” indeed that way.
(stickler for possibility claims: If one thinks that AGI can make biological immortality and that meditation can lead to a working AGI scheme then meditation can lead to biological immortality (but I know what that passage gets at))
If standard lectures last for 2 hours and a anomalous lecture lasts for 4 hours and in the last hour nobody can follow anything, it tends to be that the diagnosis is that the lecture is too long. If a student can only pay attention for the first hour of a 2 hour lecture the diagnosis tends to be that the student is too impatient.
I would not say that if somebody has low muscle mass that their capacity to change their muscle mass is impaired (that there is some problem of them using a weightlifting gym). “Do you even lift?” implies that (all) humans should lift. Not everything is worth changing and possible to change. I don’t have great pointers on more neboulous feeling where I think others are based in their reactions. I know the thing was meant conditionally. But bits like
and
mean stuff. (if you leave your terms open then you can’t effectively say that you mean 0 of something. One risks meaning slightly bad stuff for vague terms. That can be an understandble tradeoff to make communication possible at all (or be at some required handiness bar))
I’m not interested in this branch of conversation. Just letting you know that I see this and am choosing not to continue the exchange.