I think that’s an inappropriate inflation of the term, since under that definition a person could easily be “racist” against members of their own race who have different cultural backgrounds, but not against ones who don’t. Racism is a basis for unjustly treating others as outgroup members, but it can only lower the quality of our discourse if we describe all cases of unjustly treating others as outgroup members as racism.
If I understand your distinction correctly, the irrational hostility of the Californians to Oklahomans during the 1930s Great Depression is xenophobia and not racism. I guess I’m having difficulty coming up with examples of irrational / hostile racism that isn’t xenophobic. What exactly is the goal of the distinction you are making?
Well, the narrower definition of xenophobia is a fear of people from other countries. If one interprets “a fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange” broadly enough, then all racism is xenophobia, but all xenophobia is certainly not racism.
The point of the distinction I’m making is to set out a class wherein people could be expected to mistrust Obama for having a Kenyan father and having spent a number of his childhood years in Indonesia, but not to mistrust or be unwilling to vote for a person of the same racial heritage who was born and raised in their own neighborhood to parents who were both American citizens.
For a broad enough definition of racism, I don’t doubt that most birthers are racists; the Implicit Association Test suggests that most people have some degree of racial bias. But I do think that the fact that Obama is half Kenyan and spent some of his time growing up in Indonesia has much more explanatory power with respect to the birther controversy than the fact that he falls into the demographic category of African American.
To clarify, I don’t think we are currently having a substantive disagreement. That is, I think we both agree that the continued strength of the birther movement is an expression of some people’s belief that Obama is outgroup and the predictable irrationality that follows from that conclusion.
That’s what most people in the US mean when they talk about the problems of racism. If I could persuade everyone to just call this process “Othering” without specific reference to race or sex or nationality or whatever, I’d consider it.
There’s nothing wrong with trying to show that colloquial usage is misleading. Better definitions can often lead to clearer analysis. You are suggesting that mis-usage of racism is confusing the analysis, but I don’t see how. Some of that impression comes from my sense that the birthers wouldn’t vote for Obama even if he were born and raised in Chicago.
“Othering” is broad enough to encapsulate the phenomenon, but also broad enough that it doesn’t narrow down the prejudice under discussion. I’ll admit to also having a kneejerk dislike of any use of the term, since I’ve read and have an abysmally low opinion of the work of the author who popularized it
I don’t doubt that birthers mostly wouldn’t vote for Obama even if he were born and raised in Chicago, but that’s because I suspect that there’s an extremely strong overlap between that level of xenophobia and people who’re socially conservative enough to not want to vote for him on a policy basis.
Birthers are probably mostly racist, by broad enough definitions of racism, and they are certainly almost all conservative, but that doesn’t mean that their racism or their conservatism are the best explanations for their being birthers.
If a person opposes a specific government policy, and another person argues “this person just opposes the policy because they’re rich,” when the person who opposes it is a rich libertarian, and the policy is opposed by almost all libertarians, but mostly not by rich people who’re not also libertarians, then “opposes the policy because they’re rich” is a bad explanation.
If a person opposes a specific government policy, and another person argues “this person just opposes the policy because they’re rich,” when the person who opposes it is a rich libertarian, and the policy is opposed by almost all libertarians, but mostly not by rich people who’re not also libertarians, then “opposes the policy because they’re rich” is a bad explanation.
I agree with all of that. I just don’t understand what non-othering irrational racism is.
Edit: Due to insufficient background, I can neither defend nor attack Said, but my sense is that Othering and irrational outgroupism are essentially the same phenomena. At the very least, irrational outgroupism is a very good steelman of Othering.
I’m not arguing that there is non-othering irrational racism, and even if there is I wouldn’t be arguing that it’s relevant to the issue under discussion (now that I think of it, there probably is in the form of self-hating racism, where the group one is prejudiced against is “us”,) but there are also non-racism forms of othering, or outgrouping, and I think that racism is not the most salient issue of prejudice in this matter.
Fair enough. I think some of the problem is that colloquial language lacks the technical vocabulary to communicate the issue precisely. For example, I think the common usage of xenophobia and racism is not a natural kind, and othering captures the insight that colloquial usage is generally aiming for when it says “racism.” Given that, I think “birtherism is racism” is about as accurate a colloquial phrase as we are likely to meet—as intended, that phrase doesn’t agree with your point, despite its imprecision.
The usage I’m suggesting helps clarify the distinction between outgroupism and the personal issues embedded in “self-hating” racism. But it is technical vocabulary that has not yet spread into common usage. I don’t think the lack of technical vocabulary indicates an unusual level of confusion on this issue.
Most importantly, pushing the point masks fundamental agreement between you and others like JoshuaZ or TorqueDrifter.
I think that’s an inappropriate inflation of the term, since under that definition a person could easily be “racist” against members of their own race who have different cultural backgrounds, but not against ones who don’t. Racism is a basis for unjustly treating others as outgroup members, but it can only lower the quality of our discourse if we describe all cases of unjustly treating others as outgroup members as racism.
If I understand your distinction correctly, the irrational hostility of the Californians to Oklahomans during the 1930s Great Depression is xenophobia and not racism. I guess I’m having difficulty coming up with examples of irrational / hostile racism that isn’t xenophobic. What exactly is the goal of the distinction you are making?
Well, the narrower definition of xenophobia is a fear of people from other countries. If one interprets “a fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange” broadly enough, then all racism is xenophobia, but all xenophobia is certainly not racism.
The point of the distinction I’m making is to set out a class wherein people could be expected to mistrust Obama for having a Kenyan father and having spent a number of his childhood years in Indonesia, but not to mistrust or be unwilling to vote for a person of the same racial heritage who was born and raised in their own neighborhood to parents who were both American citizens.
For a broad enough definition of racism, I don’t doubt that most birthers are racists; the Implicit Association Test suggests that most people have some degree of racial bias. But I do think that the fact that Obama is half Kenyan and spent some of his time growing up in Indonesia has much more explanatory power with respect to the birther controversy than the fact that he falls into the demographic category of African American.
To clarify, I don’t think we are currently having a substantive disagreement. That is, I think we both agree that the continued strength of the birther movement is an expression of some people’s belief that Obama is outgroup and the predictable irrationality that follows from that conclusion.
That’s what most people in the US mean when they talk about the problems of racism. If I could persuade everyone to just call this process “Othering” without specific reference to race or sex or nationality or whatever, I’d consider it.
There’s nothing wrong with trying to show that colloquial usage is misleading. Better definitions can often lead to clearer analysis. You are suggesting that mis-usage of racism is confusing the analysis, but I don’t see how. Some of that impression comes from my sense that the birthers wouldn’t vote for Obama even if he were born and raised in Chicago.
“Othering” is broad enough to encapsulate the phenomenon, but also broad enough that it doesn’t narrow down the prejudice under discussion. I’ll admit to also having a kneejerk dislike of any use of the term, since I’ve read and have an abysmally low opinion of the work of the author who popularized it
I don’t doubt that birthers mostly wouldn’t vote for Obama even if he were born and raised in Chicago, but that’s because I suspect that there’s an extremely strong overlap between that level of xenophobia and people who’re socially conservative enough to not want to vote for him on a policy basis.
Birthers are probably mostly racist, by broad enough definitions of racism, and they are certainly almost all conservative, but that doesn’t mean that their racism or their conservatism are the best explanations for their being birthers.
If a person opposes a specific government policy, and another person argues “this person just opposes the policy because they’re rich,” when the person who opposes it is a rich libertarian, and the policy is opposed by almost all libertarians, but mostly not by rich people who’re not also libertarians, then “opposes the policy because they’re rich” is a bad explanation.
I agree with all of that. I just don’t understand what non-othering irrational racism is.
Edit: Due to insufficient background, I can neither defend nor attack Said, but my sense is that Othering and irrational outgroupism are essentially the same phenomena. At the very least, irrational outgroupism is a very good steelman of Othering.
I’m not arguing that there is non-othering irrational racism, and even if there is I wouldn’t be arguing that it’s relevant to the issue under discussion (now that I think of it, there probably is in the form of self-hating racism, where the group one is prejudiced against is “us”,) but there are also non-racism forms of othering, or outgrouping, and I think that racism is not the most salient issue of prejudice in this matter.
Fair enough. I think some of the problem is that colloquial language lacks the technical vocabulary to communicate the issue precisely. For example, I think the common usage of xenophobia and racism is not a natural kind, and othering captures the insight that colloquial usage is generally aiming for when it says “racism.” Given that, I think “birtherism is racism” is about as accurate a colloquial phrase as we are likely to meet—as intended, that phrase doesn’t agree with your point, despite its imprecision.
The usage I’m suggesting helps clarify the distinction between outgroupism and the personal issues embedded in “self-hating” racism. But it is technical vocabulary that has not yet spread into common usage. I don’t think the lack of technical vocabulary indicates an unusual level of confusion on this issue.
Most importantly, pushing the point masks fundamental agreement between you and others like JoshuaZ or TorqueDrifter.